This was initially going to be a post in the Card Ideas thread, as it revolves around a card idea. Eventually as I was writing it, however, it occurred to me that there was going to be so much discussion in it that it might not fit there at all; I thought about putting it into spoilers, but then it's probably better off in a separate thread. Or so I think. I think the issue doesn't need much clarification, and the title is self-explanatory as well. But let me get into it briefly, anyway. Priests can't really complain when it comes to traits. There are plenty they can use. One of them boosts direct healing (something only holy cards do), another boosts direct healing again, or vampires (while, ironically, still being entirely holy in flavour), one... doesn't really boost anything at all and is more of a drawback (at least since last year's summer balance patch), one buffs holy cards explicitly (and quite effectively), there are two that are thematically unholy but only help melee-oriented priests, one that looks promising but is very costly due to its non-specific mechanism, and one that doesn't really boost anything priests do but at least doesn't harm them, either. You can probably see what I'm getting at. But there's more to it than just the traits. Many holy support cards are quite powerful on their own; I don't think I need to point out Greater Heal, Martyr Blessing, all their friends. Generally, their itemization ranges from decent to fantastic, but it's almost always the latter. While some traits are nearly unused, Talented Healer and Altruism in particular work to enhance the potential of these cards even further, making holy-focused priests fairly effective. On the other hand, we have quite a few Unholy support cards. Some of them are decent, a few of them are good, and again there's a number of them that are virtually unplayable. To make matters worse, the itemization of these cards tends to be less than stellar, especially compared to holy cards; and I think that's an understatement. They tend to get riddled with cards like Raging Strike, Bad Luck or Demonic Miasma, which end up being dead cards more often than not (or worse). Don't take it the wrong way - I understand the concept that demonic assistance comes with a price. In fact, I like that concept (which is part of why I'm interested in unholy support in the first place). Simply put, I think that as things stand right now, the benefits do not offset the cost. As a result of this, unholy support priests are for all intents and purposes nonexistent. There are melee priests with an occasional unholy card, holy priests with the occasional unholy card, but nothing more. Short version: Holy cards are superior to their unholy counterparts in practically all aspects - power, itemization, support from traits. With that in mind, I'll share the idea I had, at least initially. In fact, and especially compared to my earlier ideas, this feels so simple I can only wonder how I haven't thought of it before (or anyone, really). Demonic Pact Boost Trait. Attach this card to yourself. Whenever a card you play deals Unholy damage to one of your allies (including yourself), it deals half that damage instead. Duration 3. "It's not any less fair than you praying to your gods for aid." - Obros Skullhome There was, of course, the problem of rounding. It's only relevant in the case of Unholy Frenzy, Unholy Energy and Demonic Power, which all are on the stronger side of the scale, so I'd guess it'd be safe to say that it can round up. The point is, the nigh-unplayable Demonic Feedback and Demonic Revenge now only deal two points of damage in exchange for that card draw, which felt fair to me. Demonic Power deals the same, but gives two cards; feels reasonable. The rest of the cards aren't significantly affected. I'm told this feels underwhelming. It likely does; I've never been really good at game balance, and I might be a little too excited about it to think clearly. It's been suggested that even no damage instead of half damage might not be enough to make this appealing; the reason for that, again, being that the already good holy cards, with much better itemization and support by Altruism, are tough to compete with. But it might be an interesting starting point. Sadly enough, anything beyond that point makes the card much more complicated. I thought of something like a random enemy within three squares (if there's one) taking two points of unholy damage. Priests already have access to Demonic Miasma, so they can do the same already (except Demonic Miasma is buffable). Considering armour, however, it's unlikely that'd make much of an impact or that it'd make the card more attractive. Making that damage penetrating would be a bit risky as it wouldn't be a direct attack and therefore it couldn't be blocked. I also thought that it could increase the unholy damage dealt if the target is an enemy, but considering the versatility of priests, there's probably no need to make them better at killing from a range (while it'd also boost vampiric cards in that form, I doubt it'd be used for that explicitly as Talented Healer honestly does that better). Overall, I'm not sure. I welcome any sort of discussion, though. Am I the only one who thinks it's a shame we don't have anything like that? As a little bonus, there's another related idea I had. Not a trait, though, and I'm not sure how good it is, balance-wise. Sacrifice Attack, Magic Unholy, Range 2 Attach to target. Whenever the controller of this card or one of its allies would take unholy damage from a card they control, this character takes that damage instead if within two squares of the caster. Duration 2. "As far as souls go, demons aren't really picky as long as they are offered something." Thanks to @Maniafig and @Wandere for the useful comments!
Many of the unholy cards were nerfed during the first year of release. Prime examples were draw cards that damaged the target instead of the caster. They were cheap, and great for finishing off low hp foes. On the holy side, healing cards (including area effect) were used to draw enemy blocks, so were changed to unblockable. Some priest cards were nerfed to curb infinite draw decks, which were eventually only eliminated via the draw limit. I know this doesn't really address your point, but I thought it might be useful to mention why some things became the way they are. The concept that holy should be healthier than unholy in the long run may also be in play. Dunno. There are exceptions, but I think most of us just mix, match, and ignore the printed ethos when building decks. I haven't considered your subject long enough to reach any conclusions, but I hope it leads to an interesting discussion. (edit) Playing a beneficial card on an ally is acting in one's self interest. Should altruism only trigger when playing a beneficial card on an opponent?
Just skimmed through the post but I have to say, not all unholy cards are underpowered by holy cards... for example take the fact that you said bad luck is bad - but Outcast's Relic is op and is used widely by many people as well as other powerful unholy based items that allow them to be played.
Great post frostguard, At first I disagreed, but the more |I think about it, the more I realise that holy cards are more popular. Im still not sure they are more powerful, though. I think also nowadays, with cards like purging burst/purge/ destructive purge becoming more prevalent, there's less incentive to run a gold card like unholy wellspring which could be negated by a common purge card, over say, greater heal which is universally good (unless you face damage-less build which i've only seen once). And of course the basic reason, is that everyone is goiong to choose items like, St Ulrich's Bones, Medical Kit, over say, Demon Charm of the 2nd (7th?) circle, every time. I've posted before about how busted Martyr's blessing and Bless can be, and then they are combined on a single item! But obviously as you touched on, thematically, demons are associated with sacrifice, punishment, selfishness, for immeidate power and gain. Maybe if there was another similar way to design a card which does such a thing, at a level which competes with greater heal and martyrs?? Couild be a nice theme for an upcoming aloyso's arsenal
Sorry again for the late response, but I thought I'd address some points in the replies, as well as add any new thoughts I might've had regarding the matter. @Sir Veza, I know that most players just mix and match when it comes to holy and unholy (in fact, many items do, too). Still, what I meant to say is that it's more than possible to build a holy-focused support priest, and many of those priests would be incredibly effective, trying to play an unholy support priest sounds more like suicide to me, if even possible. Thanks for the information, too. I haven't played this game for as long as you have (from the looks of it), I don't remember those changes at all, at least. @BlackVoidDeath, personally, I don't know if I'd call Outcast's Relic overpowered, but it's certainly powerful. Unholy Wellspring tends to have awful itemization, so a tokenless item with it and only one bad card is certainly a good deal. However, it's certainly not unique; gold-quality holy cards, like Greater Heal or Inspiring Presence can also be found on tokenless divine items with other mediocre-to-decent cards, so I don't think Outcast's Relic is too different. @Christofff, I'm not sure if holy cards are more powerful than unholy cards on their own. But when you consider the amazing backup holy cards have in the form of traits - Altruism in particular - and that unholy cards have none at all, I think that alone tips the balance in holy's favour. And they're way better itemized to boot. I tend to agree with most of what's written above. Thematically, holy cards should be more healthy in the long run, that's true. The point that unholy cards are generally associated with immediate gain for a large cost was also made. Personally, that's an important point for me, as I think that would be the core difference between holy and unholy. But then on the other hand, it's odd when you contrast cards like Unholy Energy or Accelerated Thought, which are basically long-term investments with no immediate gain, with Inspiration or Inspiring Presence, which are immediate (and with Altruism, which I think needs no further addressing, a silver- card lets you draw one and a half cards on average instantly, as opposed to the three cards total of a silver+ and a gold in three rounds, all assuming it's not purged or pushed off and ignoring that the latter two also come with drawbacks, if not lethal ones). Soothing Darkness is also a thematical oddity in that regard. I had a few thoughts, too, recently. Probably not enough for a coherent suggestion, though. Personally, I tend to associate demonic bargains with being granted amazing powers now, and paying for them dearly later. Cards that grant a powerful bonus but do something harmful when they expire - much like Doom or Mental Flensing (except not instantly killing the target, of course; a good amount of unpreventable unholy damage would suffice) - would fit into this just right, and I believe it's an interesting mechanic that isn't really used at all. Sure, the self-harm could be prevented with purging cards, but that'd mean using one of those just to nullify a disadvantage of one of your own cards. Regarding Unholy Energy, Accelerated Thought and Soothing Darkness, something (a trait?) that instantly triggers the start-of-round effects of Unholy cards you play when you play them could be interesting, but that wouldn't help the other cards (and the whole issue) at all. Or, perhaps better yet, I had an idea while writing this post: Demonic Surge Utility, Magic Unholy You take 4 unpreventable Unholy damage. Increase the duration of all Unholy attachments you control by one and trigger their start-of-round effects. "Channeling infernal energies through one's body might be a painful experience. Those who survive tend to say it's worth the effort." Obviously very powerful. Could get a range limitation, perhaps; still, it'd go well with the idea of assist cards that damage on expiration, Unholy Energy, Accelerated Thought, and something I didn't talk much about - unholy debuffs. Speaking of that, it's another, fairly obvious route unholy could go down on. There aren't a lot of debuffs in the game. Wizards can encumber; priests have a few things like Curse of Fragility, Bad Luck, or Mind Worm, which are generally (the first one aside) a little lacklustre, Entangling Roots, which is powerful, but most of their debuffing manifests in the form of attaching random handicaps, which is quite gimmicky and rather luck-based. Already existing potential debuffs are probably way too powerful (Unholy Curse or Dastardly Curse), though with the amount of cards called Curses there might be something to selectively boost them. I don't know. Thematically, I think that the unholy trait I thought up in my previous post could be workable; I might not have mentioned it (maybe I didn't even have the idea in my head back then), but the whole thing with not dealing damage to allies with unholy assist cards could be explained with the assumption that the infernal powers would settle for the lives of your enemies. Personally, that makes sense to me. Redirecting unholy damage taken sounds a bit too good at first glance, though maybe with a range limitation it'd be workable, considering that priests may often have trouble getting into and staying in range, and then we're talking about support priests to boot. On a final note, this might not be the most appropriate place, but I'll post a few more random ideas I had. Thirsting Blade Attack/Assist, Magic Unholy, Range 4 Attach to target character. Melee Frenzy 3. When this card expires, target takes 4 unpreventable Unholy damage. When the target kills a character, increase this card's duration by one. Duration 2. "Wielding a weapon with a demon's soul within sounds like a bad idea. However, all you need to do is to keep doing what it wants you to." Note: Too good in singleplayer. Also, the name's reused from one of my earlier suggestions in the proper thread, because that suggestion was stupid. (Hint, mine mostly are.) Scorching Blade Assist, Magic Unholy, Range 2 Attach to target character. When target deals Melee damage to another character, create and attach a copy of Hellfire to that character. If that character already has Hellfire attached, trigger it instead. Duration 2. "Call on me and touch the blade - from cold steel to raging blaze." Hellfire Attack, Magic Fire Burning 3, Duration 1.
~attaches Scorching Blade to Talented Healer vampire ally~ My "Like" comes with a disclaimer of maybe "Infernal Blaze" would be nicer instead? Hm. EDIT: Usually Inspiration gets considered more similar to Demonic Feedback or Demonic Power, but I must say, Unholy Energy's potential hand reveal is costly in and of itself (nevermind its purgeable gold quality cost).
