[suggestion] Custom map tiles that visually imply height.

Right now I can sort of fake the illusion of stairways (in the map editor), but implying to a viewer that the battlefield is more vertical than horizontal is really difficult right now when it comes to the variety of walls I have to chose from. I think it's because they're all just a little too designed to look like a top-down view from any angle. However, you do have a few tiles that do a good job of faking the height illusion, like the stairways that can be found in the temple tileset. Layering these in the right way can give the illusion of a pyramid pretty easily, and I'd like a few more wall-type segments to use for this same sort of effect.

To illustrate what I'm talking about, here are some screenshots of a game (Nomad Soul) I feel did this illusion really well. Bear in mind that all these images were painted onto a perfectly flat plane, and were only done to give the viewer the illusion of what each square was meant to represent. The game included a map rotation function, and in a lot of instances, flipping the map around would appear extremely disorienting, as if you were looking at a bunch of characters hanging around on the ceiling. That was because the illusion was done so well. It only looked right from one angle.
Needless to say we wouldn't need this level of graphical detail. I'm only suggesting basics like sloping wall segments and the like. Also, because Card Hunter has no map rotation, it's going to be extremely easy to make sure that the player's perspective remains fixed in the "correct" alignment for such a visual illusion to look appealing without too much effort.



This would be an example of how walls could appear to be more than a single square high. I don't need all the little building flourishes to get the effect that I want, but a wall segment that appears to go upwards that I could then layer on top of another would go miles in creating this visual illusion for an outdoor battle. Come to think of it, a roofing tileset would be handy in this instance as well.



These are all hand painted mountains, and we certainly would't need to take the illusion that far. All I really need is a "wall" segment that is coded as blocking terrain that shows a diagonal sloping face. Rotating and placing multiples of it it correctly will give the illusion of a sloping object that could be used to illustrate mountains, cliff faces, or anything that has a large wall sloping upwards.



This castle wall creates the illusion of height by including a "cloud" tile set. Anyone who wants to enhance the illusion that their adventure is at the top of a very tall object could use these to surround their open terrain and make it look like it's way up in the air. Functionally it would be exactly the same as the way water works (can't be moved on, doesn't block view) but the illusion is completely different from water.



This was one of my favorite maps in the game. It involved fighting across bridges that were suspended halfway down a canyon. To create the illusion, the cliffs were visually extended both upwards and down. The effect of rotating this map was easily the most disorienting in spite of it's true 2D nature, which spoke volumes to the overall effect that the illusion carried.



Sometimes it was also advantageous to display a more top-down view, and buildings could easily be displayed upside-down such that the player's perspective appeared to peek straight down into a ring of buildings. As you can see, the illusion isn't ruined as long as the sloping wall faces would be aligned correctly.


The fact that so many great perspectives were achievable on a perfectly flat plane was very inspiring to me, and I think this would help not only enhance the possibilities for CH adventure developers, but also give the custom map creators an excellent new tool in illustrating the missions they want to create for their audience.

 

erm, you want some tiles (walls etc) to fake height illusion but you don't want it for all the tiles ? Is that what you are trying to say ? If there is a need to rework tile art, I'd prefer full isometric (eg: Bastion like) than half-half.

Faking depth on a plane surface is easy, making a sprite sheet to capture an object from four camera angles is easy. The problem is the time investment required (for an indie outfit) is high.

 

I don't need it for all the tiles if that's what you're asking, no. This game doesn't need hardly any tiles in the first place to get by. Let me show you an example of what I'm currently trying to build to try and illustrate how it would be useful.


What I'm trying to do in this map is test how well I can create the illusion of a steep upward climb to a cliff face with a bridge at the top. So far, I can sort of fake a sky with the black tiles (good thing the fight is supposed to be at night as I envisioned it) and I can lead the eye to sort of see height by basically implying topographical layering with the edges of the cave walls. As a result, my little path that leads up it looks reasonably good, with some stairs and railings to sort of help imply edges and steepness. However, I think a lot of this could have been made a lot clearer if I simply had one more tile that placed the lines vertically. All that "rock" could be a single tile that would be used for a rock wall when layered correctly, making the platform at the top appear to be higher than the one below it without a ton of fuss. Old 2D games like the first few Final Fantasy games had maps like this pretty frequently, which is why I'm intentionally going for the retro look. I definitely don't quite have it yet with the tools I have at my disposal, though.

 

Wow! That is really beautiful, Aldones. I can imagine the type of epic fight ala FFT.

 

If you want to have a look at what I've got so far, I'll provide it. I could use some feedback on the perspective. I've added a bunch of shadows to see if it makes things look more intuitive. It's cool looking to me, but I'm not sure it really goes any further in creating any illusion of depth...



Whatever you do, don't use any whirlwinds or teleports on this map, or it will spoil the illusion. I'm still trying to select a good NPC party for the player to control on this map to make it fair but limit the availability of any whirlwinds. If you look closely at the field of movement for my "flying" ornithopters, I think you'll see why it would ruin the visual effect immediately if you started teleporting characters around randomly. Coincidentially, being able to designate my own open terrain is a totally awesome tool.

 

I almost forgot to mention it, but an easy way to create shadows would go a long way to achieve this effect as well. the ability to make an exact shadow copy of an object shape with some sort of doodad-like color filter would be great (Cookie-cutter I hear is the term). If I had a transparent shade or simply flat black (both would be equally helpful) then I could use it to make a cookie cutter shadow of any object on the surface underneath it. Right now I'm just using about a bajillion little pieces of black doodad from the melvin doodad set, but with it, I'm able to get some pretty neat effects, like this night battle I'm working on.

In the center of the map I have a single "light source", surrounded by rocks that look illuminated only on one side. The rest of the map is intentionally left in darkness, obstacles and all. Using this effect I can make it clear that the rocks have height as well as width. With just a few more black doodads I could have simulated some much more complex light sources. Shapes like a single black triangle, or a half-circle would be invaluable, and relatively easy to create, since they're not a complex texture. flat black or transparent black would both be really useful to just "brush" doodad shadows onto the map to create depth. In return, you'd probably generate even more inspiration for some really interesting adventure scenarios.

 

A transparent doodad exists. You can find it in the decal palette, 1st layer (no label, its above dungeon). You can see a sample comparison from the Die Hard! thread and the Halloween version. It even stacks !

This thread really belongs to the custom scenario forum, builders there can give better feedback.

 

Couldn't you use the black stain things from Melvin decal to shadow tiles to give at least some illusion of height?

 

If you think the thread should be moved then by all means do so, but it was my intention to make a suggestion, and not just talk about it. I'd love the feedback, but my pictures are meant to serve foremost as examples for why I'm making my suggestion.

That's a good start. If it's hidden in a label-less selection then it's obvious how I must have missed it. For the same reason, it took me creating three maps before I noticed I had flat black as a tile option. I'll play around with it. It appears to be a full tile in width? Most of the time I find that something smaller is beneficial because it's hard to paint on smaller detail with something so big, but for making large areas darken, something like this tool would be very valuable.
That finally solves the mystery of how Kalin got those nice shadows under the trees on that one map they made. I've been dying to figure that one out.

 

Yes. I'm trying to suggest a addition to tilesets that allow a board designer to create maps that don't appear perfectly flat. This usually means the inclusion of a few tiles that fool the eye into seeing an existing object in a new way (using doodads to make a flat rock look like it has height using shadows, "Ladder" doodads, etc.) or make a kind of blocked terrain that looks like a wall segment, rather than a floor segment. It causes the overall image of the map to transition from a top down appearance to about a 45 degree diagonal view appearance.
My pictures were meant to display examples of where such a tileset would enhance the look I'm trying to simulate, and to generate further discussion as to exactly what new tiles or doodads would be helpful for producing such effects easily. Naturally, we'd want to keep the tools easy to use without requiring dozens of new objects to get created. Phaselock's point about not wanting to cost the devs a ton of effort wasn't lost on me at all. I simply feel that the addition of a few of these tools would open up the range of possibilities for map creators so substantially that it would be worth the effort.

 

In that label-less layer there's also some shadows that aren't full tile in width

 

I'm attempting something like this myself: (EDIT: version 2)


Is it clear you can get from the balcony to the tree to the roof?

 

Good point. I did my best to "delete" those black borders and put the result in my original post. I also made it clearer that you can run along the top of the outer wall; eventually there will be more buildings and trees so you can get there.

Now I'm worried about the gap between the building and the outer wall... the roof should hide most of that grass, but I want it to be clear there is a gap there. And I desperately need a vertical black line of some sort.

EDIT: Discussion of my board would be better over in my own thread:
https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/art-test.4554/