Seeking board advice

Edit 3: I have decided to use this thread for critiquing scenarios as I come up with them (in order to not make multiple threads). I will link to each scenario's below this edit.

Scenarios:
1st scenario (has been critiqued): This (1st post)
2nd scenario (added 12 August):The Lone Gnome: post # 16 - Updated 8/14

Original 1st post:
Hello,

I made a map and submitted it to Mauve Manticore. I am now posting here for advice on how to improve it.

Two aspects I think can be improved are:
1) It may be too difficult. I made it difficult because I was trying to approximate the difficulty of the Mauve Manticore missions that I have already played -- some of which initially took me quite a while to beat. A difference for my map -- and likely not a good difference -- is that being able to win depends too largely on getting certain draws. I havent calculated the probability of drawing these card -- perhaps I will eventually -- but I should probably add more of the necessary cards to the deck (ie choose characters that have more of these cards).

Spoiler: HINT/Spoiler

These cards are heals, flying, and movement cards. Perhaps also purges and variations of purge.

I can easily add more of the cards mentioned in the spoiler by using different MM ai wizards or priests, which I have tried. I found many combinations too easy, however. That is why I decided on the current, more difficult, configuration.

2) The board has a lot of decals and could probably use a good decluttering. I don't know if I'm going to make aesthetic changes, though. I probably should make blocked/impassable squares more apparent -- I do think (and hope) that all my squares are properly outlined, atleast.

A couple other things are that the VP needed to win should perhaps be increased from 4 to 5 for the AI. The AI gets 2 stars if they kill one of your characters, and they will get the VP for one, likely two rounds before you get to it, so if one of your characters die you will likely lose. Lastly, perhaps I should move the tricksters spawns back so they can't attack the player right away, or add more spawns. I tried this though and didn't like the results (I also tried having more tricksters, but then you spend most of your time waiting for them to shuffle over and over again).

Thank you for reading this and for any suggestions.

Spoiler: Beginning screenshots

Spoiler: Victory proof

granted, I won by within one acorn of death for both characters.

Edit 1: Forgot to attach scenario...

Edit 2: Replaced old scenario and screenshots with updated ones

Notes on updated scenario:

• The map still does not fit on one screen (although it almost does), but that is simply because I want to have the monkeys spawn off screen. The ice area could be removed with little impact on playability
• Winning is much less dependent on one's draws (since flight is no longer needs to get across quickly, nor is terrain avoidance as important). However, the scenario is still difficult (in my opinion). However, the board is fun even with different characters so if you find the scenario hard try other priests/wizards and have fun! (for example I think if you use cyber priest you will breeze through this in 5 minutes).
• Some polishing my still be needed

 

If you like, I won't consider your submission until you've received feedback & revised it. =)

 

If waiting lets it still be considered for the next mauve manticore (8?), I would like that. If waiting means that it does not get considered until the MM after the next MM (MM 9?), then please don't wait.

Also, thank you for the kind offer.

 

MM8's lineup had been selected before you submitted

 

I will agree that you don't want a scenario that is dependent on drawing certain cards in order to be able to succeed. Also a lot of players actually don't like that some MM's are as hard as they are. Don't shoot for difficulty just for difficulties sake. Focus on making the map fun or unique. An easy map that is fun can be a great map!

The last criticism I have, but it's my biggest, is your map size. It not at all unusual for new map makers to get carried away and make large elaborate maps with lots of monsters. These may result in map making masterpieces, but tend to result in very bogged down play. Small maps make for quick action and quick battles, this is what most players enjoy. If you have a lot of ideas you're trying to work into a map, think about if it might be better to break them up into different maps. When you can't fit your map in a single screen shot, it's usually a very bad sign. Remember, maps don't get selected for "epicness" but for how well they play.

 

This right here is the main reason, why I like MM #7 as a whole the best. Restarting / losing just because you don't draw the necessary cards is no fun!

 

I didn't know that. Please wait for me to get feedback then.

The map is large, but it is purposefully large. The reason is that the challenge and trickiness of the map comes from:

Spoiler: spoiler because useful information in beating the scenario

the fact that you have to get to the VP quickly, because the flying monkey can get over the impassable terrain blocking them (because, well, they are flying monkeys). The monsters in the first half of the map do not even need to be killed -- this is why I set low VP requirements (8 for the player). You VPS are easily obtainable from the 4 trapslings in the back half of the map. Then getting 4 vps from the victory point is not time consuming (if there were no monkeys). Killing a monkey gives you a VP, though so now you only need three, Then you kill the second monkey and you only need 2 rounds to win. By the time I had killed a monkey I had usually already gotten a vp though (through using lava terrain to keep enemies off on VP). You can get more if you combine lava with hover.

The purpose of the first part of the map and the traplings is not to kill them; it is that if you are not strategic they will hit you with acid or fire, which for a 17hp wizard can cause problems later in the game. I also selected the AI priest that I did because he has few heals, so you cannot heal away the damage from the traplings (if you use a priest with many heals beating the level is easy).

To summarize the spoiler: the first part of the map (the narrow path with traplings) is simply there to add some strategy to the scenario. The wizard does not spend more than 3 rounds there (I think you will lose if you spend more than 3 there), and ideally you will be out of there in 2 rounds, sometimes even one. The dwarf spends more rounds there because he only moves 2, which is perhaps a problem. However, if you draw Team Shift or Charge he can get out sooner.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't find play bogged down; the first part of the map is basically a tricky escape. The second part of the map consists of getting a victory point without dying, which means pushing away/killing traplings, and eliminate the monkey. Flying monkeys die quickly, but are good enemies because they have their acorn throws. They do steal magic cards though, which I'm not sure I like... it makes surviving depend on RNG sometimes.

As for the difficulty, you are probably correct. However, I don't currently have an idea for a "fun yet easy map", and I enjoy the difficulty of the MM's, so I am not going to rework my map just for the sake of making it easier. Although perhaps I will could move the VP's, decrease the # of monkeys from one to two, or change the MM AI players to slightly lower the difficulty. I will consider doing those.

Edit: To reply to Pawndawan

Well, see, a good map will let you compensate for not having the necessary cards in such levels by being strategic (Ie finding a way to stay alive until you get the cards). That is doable here, as well as in the MM map with Whorl. However, the potential problem with both the map with Whorl and my map is that if you stall for time to get the right cards you will lose on VPS.

In this map, 2 or three restarts should get you the cards that you need, but you usually can get them every try, or every 2 try, because the priest has cards that let you draw more cards. The bigger problems with my map, in my opinion, is that the monkeys perhaps hit too hard for the wizard (acorn hits 7 of 17hp), and they steal the wizards spells. That is what makes the scenario difficult, not so much needing to be able to fly (you can win without flying, you just need to be more careful, and perhaps somewhat lucky). The other issue is that the priest, being a dwarf, is perhaps too slow; I can get the wizard to the VP in 3 or 4 rounds in the average game but the priest takes 7 (6? 8?, I never counted), unless he ends up with charge and teamshifts AND fly. if the dwarf starts flying he can just cut across the middle.

Edit 2: Also, thanks all for the information and suggestions.

 

One bit of advice is to make sure you have all of the lower doodads in place. Looking at your map we can see that you started adding them, but stopped for some reason.

 

I applaud you for being intentional in your map making.

You know your map, you know the strategy that you want people to take to it, when you see it you're looking at the answer. When I see it, I see this huge thing that I'm going to have to drag around the screen just to begin to know what's there. If your victory points are off screen, I may not even know they exist until the AI starts scoring points if I just start attacking what's in front of me. And then figuring out strategy requires dragging the screen, remembering what I saw, thinking about it, dragging the screen back to make sure I didn't miss details. I'm not looking at the map with the answer in my head, I come in knowing nothing and have a HUGE amount of map info to assimilate to start to decide on the best course of action. This I consider "bogs down play." Frankly I just look at your screenshots and I don't want to even try the map (I don't intend this comment in a mean way, just a very direct observation of my thoughts when I see the map as a player).

Ultimately you asked for advice. There's two ways you might have meant it.

1. Looking for advice to improve the existing map to make it play as it currently does, only smoother. I admit my advice is of no help in this case.
2. Looking for advice to increase the chance that it gets selected for a future MM. If this is the advise you're seeking, you might reconsider what I've noted. There was another player I gave similar advice to a while back who chose to continue to make very large maps. That's fine, as they were his maps and he enjoyed making them, but as I suspected, none of them got selected for an MM. Recently I've seen him begin to make smaller maps which I haven't tried, but look like they're much more "bite-size" and fun. I'm excited for him as I wouldn't be surprised if one of these newer ones gets selected in the future.

I made a lot of maps and a lot of submissions before my first one got selected. Some were good, some weren't. I think it's great you've gotten into map making and I encourage you to keep at it. Regardless whether you decide my advice is good or just hog wash, the more maps you make the better you'll become.

Cheers!

 

I have taken it upon myself to PM players new to map making and either give a bit of advice or tell them that making a thread for help is a good idea.
(yes I am the cause of all these words....)
Unfortunately I do not have time to read everything in this thread at the moment so I will just give some of my opinions:
First of all, I would recommend cleaning the doodads up and making it clearer about what terrain is what.
I dont know what Flaxative want the most effort on: 1. The Gameplay 2. The Look (tiles + doodads) or 3. The Story + how it matches with the scenario so I try my best at all 3 of these. ( @Flaxative if you see this post please tell me which one so I can put more effort into it, even though I know you will say "all of them" )
I think your story is ok, but like I said before, the tiles look quite messy. And also, as far as I can see, the game is reliant on the player to draw specific cards at specific moments which makes the scenario less enjoyable, another note is that Flax prefers small maps with as little characters as possible so I would recommend shrinking the map.
I think there are a few more points, but I will let the other players tell you about them.

 

I don't know much about lower doodads, so I will look into it and fix it. Thank you.

I can agree with that. Indeed, it appears much simpler to me since I know what to do as opposed to seeing it for the first time. I will say, though, that just because something looks confusing/difficult does not mean that it isn't fun; it simply doesn't appear fun (perhaps a pointless distinction, but I am drawing it).

I can and will try shrinking the map by removing some of the traplings (currently I have 4 boxes -- I imagine them as houses -- with traplings. I will reduce that to two and alter the positioning of the boxes/houses so that it still requires two moves, on average, to get past the traplings (If I make it possible to get past the traplings on the first move without getting injured every time, or almost every time, then there will be no point in having traplings stuck behind impassable terrain). I will also perhaps shrink the middle portion with the bridges in order to make the map smaller, as that section really has no function. perhaps shrinking it will make it too easy to kill enemies across the middle, but I can always solve that by making blocked terrain if necessary.

Also worth noting is that the uppermost portion of the map (with ice), is not really used by the player. I like the look of it (and the effect of having ladders rotated leaning against each other. I believe it adds an illusion of depth), and it makes the flying monkeys unable to reach the VP in one move without a lucky draw of 2 flys. I may keep it to delay the monkeys, but shortening the lower part of the map may make delaying the monkeys unnecessary. So I may remove it or I may not. If I keep it the map will probably never fit on one screen, but at least I will make the VP apparent on first look.

Also, I guess our definition of "bogs down play" differs slightly, although I see where you are coming from.

Lastly, I indeed am seeking advice on improving my map, not so much on getting selected for MM's. Don't get me wrong, I want to be selected, but I am not going to change my entire map/idea/concept in order to do so. I am trying to incorporate the suggestions I am given, it is just that making the map small enough to fit on one screen will likely ruin the concept I had in mind when creating the map.

As I said in my reply to Scarponi, I will work on shrinking the map, although I doubt I will be able to fit it in one screenshot. I am working on shrinking the map without compromises the point of the map, which limits me somewhat.

Regarding the tiles looking messy; I wholeheartedly agree with you. I often could not find terrain to suit what I wanted ( a lot of the terrain I want is "blocked", and thus has a black border, or open whereas I want impassable terrain), so I ended up using open terrain and then dumping a lot of stuff on it to make it look impassable. This obviously resulted in a messy look. I will try to fix this but I'm not exactly sure how I will achieve the result I want. Therefore I will pose the question:

Does anyone happen to have any tips on making open terrain obviously impassable? Also, what about impassable vs difficult.
From what I gather difficult terrain has obstacles (flowers, stairs, etc), whereas impassible terrain is more broken (chasms). Sticking chasms everywhere just makes these look out of place in my opinion (unless it is a doomsday, volcano, ice word, map). In a jungle setting chasms don't have much place... Therefore I tried to make things be impassable by sticking many decals on the tile -- including chasm decals -- to distract from random chasms in the jungle. This is why I made it messy.

 

The question here is: Why is this tile Impassable? Is it a pit? Water? Lava? Fence?
The rope fences from Tree Forts can be found in the Forest decals and Vulcan has chains. Also, I assumed those tiny cracks were Difficult, not Impassable.

For making Impassable look like Difficult, try building a path out of rocks (Cavern or Volcano) or vines (Maztec).

Looking at your map more closely, the water tiles with rubble look like Difficult terrain, but you have them Blocked or Impassable. Also, the plants along one side are half Difficult and half Blocked. You need to be more consistent within your map, even if you're not consistent with other people's maps. And you always want a black outline on Blocked tiles; there are solid black tiles you can put under your decals to do this.

 

Just a heads up that I'm in the process of making changes to the map. It may be a few days before I finish, though.

 

I updated the first post instead with new screenshots and scenario.

 

Much better! And I love the use of stairs as a fence.

 

Here's another scenario I have come up with. This one is much easier than the last.

Title: The Lone Gnome #1 (I may make a series of "Lone Gnome" scenarios)


Intro: There is a rumor that your only ability is inciting violence. Your fellow gnomes refer to you as an "inciter" and stay away from you. Word of your behavior has also spread to the rest of Cardhuntria and you are shunned everywhere you go. You want a friend, however, and therefore decide to wander Cardhuntria's extensive network of tunnels in hopes of finding someone who has not heard the rumors about you. Interestingly, you seem to have come upon an underground temple. You walk inside and come upon a witch, some gnarls, and a captive Goblin Hulk. You are about to ask the witch to be your friend when she attacks shouting "How dare you interrupt me while I perform magic!." Defeat the witch and her Gnarls! Free the Goblin Hulk while you are at it and perhaps he will become your friend.

Epilogue: You have survived but are sad to have caused more violence. Oh well, time to ask the Goblin Hulk to be your friend.

Spoiler: Screenshots

Questions:

Also, any advice on the cork lower doodad? I'm not exactly sure what all the pieces are for.

 

The attachment is not working.

 

I downloaded the attachment from the forum to my desktop and it worked. I don't think it would make a difference, but perhaps you tried downloading it while I was editing the post (you posted 2 minutes after I edited).

Can you try again, timeracers? Or can someone else confirm if the scn attachment is working or not?

 

It is working now.

 

The combat is obvious and the enemy has extra characters that don't do anything except for waste time.