Need Elven Advice!

Discussion in 'Adventure Discussion and Strategy' started by SkyCake, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. SkyCake

    SkyCake Kobold

    Heya! This might get a little lengthy, as I want to explain why I want the advice... Sorry that this came out much longer than I intended.

    Basically, are there certain cards that give Elves the edge? Or, certain tactics? I'm going to try and "highlight" the more important parts in an attempt to save you some time.

    Okay! So, I decided for my campaign playthrough to use all Elves, and one of each class. From reading their tooltip, I figured it was a bad idea when I read their advantage was movement. Movement is an iffy subject for me in strategy games, and below are a few examples to illustrate my opinion on it.

    Dawn Of War has a faction called Eldars. They're essentially space elves. Please know, I'm not referring to the tapletop Warhammer 40k, but the PC game. Their advantage is also movement. They sacrifice health, armor, and damage for this extra movement (generally enhanced by webway gates). BUT! Where's the advantage? No matter how quickly you get to the fight, there's still going to be a fight. If you get there first but can't deal/take the damage, then why bother getting there first? So! How do you make up for this? With "hit-and-run" tactics. Now, you're just doing chip damage in order to preserve your units. You're creating a lot of extra work for a less reward. Necrons are the opposite of Eldar (on a functional level, not lore). You select units, right click to where you want enemies dead, and you win. There's no extra hassle or anything, and you get better results. Not only that, but most (if not all) factions overcome their mobility with teleporting units, making Eldar's advantage even worse.

    Fire Emblem games, you have a class (usually, depends on which one) known as the General. Generals are heavy armored, slow moving, hard-hitters. There's another class, Assassin. Assassins are quick, low armor, light hitters. But! They have a higher dodge and crit chance. You can send a General into a group of enemies, and know he'll live and deal heavy damage (or, likely kill depending on couple things like unit type and difficulty). OR! You can send the Assassin in, and hope he gets good rolls in order to live via dodge, or kill via crits. By using the Assassin instead, you've added an extra layer of luck/difficulty with no benefits.

    Keep in mind, I didn't talk about fun levels. Speedy/movement/dodge classes can be fun, and I often pick them knowing I'm making the game harder on myself. But, that's a different discussion with different variables, and not something I'm wondering about.

    Anyways! Sorry. Now, to Card Hunter and Elves. Their advantage is similar to Eldars in that there's many reasons movement is near useless. The maps are small, often tight, and have tiles to end movement. Movement gets negated harshly when there's nowhere to move. There's plenty of spears and ranged attacks in the game, further negating the use of movement. Other races do a great job for making up for their lack of movements via charge cards. I typically end up with more movement than I know what to do with, so there's not many places to go. Enemies come to you. Many times, I end up with draws that are primarily movement cards with no attacking cards, despite my best efforts to stack offense. Most of the time, it feels like I'm sacrificing HP (which lead to a sacrifice of offense) for no gains.

    Here are the things I'm doing with my elves.
    - My Warrior mostly uses spear attacks, with movement attacks thrown in. The general idea is to keep that space where I can still attack with my spears and hopefully negate some damage. This normally ends with my low HP elf getting stabbed by the many spear using enemies, or overrun'd.
    - I've made my Priest mostly heals to help deal with the low HP (another instance of lower damage). She spends most of her time trying to keep everyone up, but does have attacks consisting of spear attacks. Consuming Spear, Spear of Darkness, ect.
    - My Mage uses spells that move the enemy. Force Bolt, Force Blast, Telekinesis. And, makes use of Surging Bolt/Blast to keep her movement up, and get close enough to use Big Zap. I would like to change her out for more offensive spells, but she is the biggest advantage I have at the moment while using her to control the enemy.
    - I usually begin by passing on my first turn so that the enemy burns a movement card, granting me the movement advantage. There are times when I will try to dash to a certain enemy in attempts to eliminate them before the other enemies get to me, but with the maps being so small this usually only give me a one turn (if that) start.

    Elves seem like "hard mode". I know Drawf would benefit an easier playstyle (in this game) more so than Elves. They're not having to sacrifice damage in attempts to stay mobile. Most enemies are going to come to them (in which, a Chop is going to be more effective than a Stab, especially with Martial Skills), and the enemies that don't run at them can still be chased down due to the map limitations on movement. But, I'm really determined to make the Elves work, due to the reasons that Melvin stated... And, they are fun to play. Just, challenging for little reason.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
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  2. Killer74

    Killer74 Hydra

    From the perspective of multi-player Elven warriors see a lot of use; quite probably the most used race/class combination. Elf priests see occasional play, and there are very few elf wizards in play. So, the short answer to your question is yes.

    The only differences between the races are their default move, their health, and their racial skills. If one looks at some of the cards available on elf skills, one might see why elves are used. All the cards that might justify elf play (which appear solely on elf skills) are as follows: Slippery, Pathfinding, Elvish Insight, Elvish Scamper, Elven Trickery, Scouting Run, Elven Maneuvers.

    All of these are decent cards, but Elven Maneuvers is the main reason to use elves (Cautious Mobility being the skill of choice, with two of them); it has a long duration (4) and with enough moves cards (which can be attack/move hybrids) in deck, the chances are that whenever they're hit, they will draw a move card. This is a massive boost for warriors (but not so much the other two classes), which justifies picking them over health. The default dash is not to be sniffed at either, mobility can be very important (it's certainly not enough to justify the lower health by itself though, mobility is easily added to a deck).

    As regards campaign: You can complete it with anything you choose, though some set-ups are obviously trickier. There is much less reason to use elves than in MP however, for the reasons you've stated (the AI mobs come to you anyway, and others can be chased down easily enough). However, the above cards can still justify using them. Mostly the only reason to use them is for fun. There are occasional maps where elves are better, but dwarfs have an easier time overall.
     
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  3. SkyCake

    SkyCake Kobold

    Thank you so much for the reply! Also, thank you for being kind! I've realized my OP can seem like I'm trying to say, "elves suck" when I wasn't. Definitely seems as if I was alluding to that, though.

    I wasn't aware Elven Maneuvers could draw one of the moving attack cards, even though it makes sense. That makes it more beneficial than I thought! I haven't tried pvp mulitplayer, but with players being less predictable than the AI, it would make sense that movement is more value'd there.

    I'm going to keep working at them! Still only level 10 with my elven group. I think my level 3 group of drawves out performs them, but meh. I think I'm going to watch some multiplayer battles and see what people are using there. So, good luck to everyone! I'll be rooting for at least one of you. ;)
     
  4. Fry

    Fry Ogre

    Elven Maneuvers with a pile of step attacks (especially Vicious Thrust, Nimble Strike, and Laser Thrust) is great, and I use it all the time for campaign. Elvish Insight (particularly from the item Insight) is the other big winner, IMO: it tells you exactly what the enemies are capable of, so you know whether you need to worry about blocks, or big attacks, or ranged attacks, or terrain attacks, etc. I usually let the enemies take one turn before using it, just to make sure they've already cycled their Traits. If you're going to go heavy on Elvish Insight, you might look into taking some Devastating Blow to go with it.
     
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  5. SkyCake

    SkyCake Kobold

    Awesome, thank you! I'm seeing how the potential is there. I need to change up a few things (and, get a few things!), but I have more confidence in my Elves' future.
     
  6. Christofff

    Christofff Guild Leader

    Elves with their default move dash are also great at outmanoeuvring. Take a couple big hits? No problem, just dash away, heal up, dash back in, rinse repeat. On certain maps, thanks to dash they can also occupy the victory square a turn faster, which can be a huge difference, especially if you can position them to block off enemy characters.

    Having the lowest HP of the races is in some ways a blessing, as it forces you to consider your moves more carefully.

    Bottom line- elves are the best ;)
     
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  7. SkyCake

    SkyCake Kobold

    Random question, but what is happening to make my elves only be able to move one square when using a dash? There's no modifiers on them, no armor in their hand, on an open tile surrounded by open tiles. It can frustrating, sometimes.
     
  8. Happenstance

    Happenstance Thaumaturge

    The two big MP elf builds are warriors (mentioned) and vampire priests. An important proviso is that elves rely more on traits, so are more vulnerable to purge. But if your opponent is light on purges, an elf step warrior with maneuvres and martyr's blessing will most likely be drawing two cards each time it is hit.

    Elf vamps linger out of range until they draw talented healer. Then they can dash in (healing dash is a cantrip move when talented healer is attached), hit two or three times and dash out if necessary - all in a single turn. They are fantastic at taking out wounded and blockless characters.

    Are they in an enemy's zone of control (the squares surrounding each character)? Remember, this prevents enemy mobs from rushing past your front line troops to feast on your tasty, tasty supports.
     
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  9. Happenstance

    Happenstance Thaumaturge

    As for SP, elves are very handy for the demon portals and core levels (loaded up with shimmer aura for the demons and terrain cleansing for core). 2 x dwarf vamps and a support (mage with Akon's for armour-heavy levels, etc.) will take you right through all the other levels, up to 18. Then you want to start playing a nimbus priest to soak up the OP attacks the enemy mobs have - enemy mobs looove hitting nimbused characters. The usual for these levels is a nimbus priest + terrain/control wizzes (volcano, accelerate time). Later, when you have the items, firestorm wizzes blast through many of the early levels, which you'll revisit to catch the loot fairy. That's pretty much the standard SP strategy for the entire game.
     
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  10. CT5

    CT5 Guild Leader

    While elves may not always be ideal for SP due to the enemy typically running towards you (which you note), they shine in MP. Well, elf warriors in particular shine (though I still think elf priests and wizards are fine). Elf warriors are actually the easy mode of Card Hunter, for the reasons @Christofff gave. Dash lets them outmaneuver, chase, or quickly get in the enemy's face, depending on what you need to happen. People complain all the time about knowing what the 3 Elf Warriors are going to do, but still have trouble stopping it because the elves are always knocking at the door, if they aren't already tearing apart the door and flinging it at your face as part of the onslaught.

    When starting out in SP, elves probably are a bit tougher, but I think you learn the game faster (partly out of necessity due to their low life!) from playing elves. Says the guy who played elf + two humans in SP.

    elves are still the best
     
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  11. RoflCat

    RoflCat Goblin Champion

    Well, this is just my experience with each particular class: (haven't completed SP, currently renown 11)

    Elf Warrior - Heavy Armor, while it won't save you against the bigger enemies, you basically become tankier than dwarf warrior in some sense thanks to that 2+ roll on the armor, and encumber doesn't hurt you too badly. If you're worried about big hitters then use shield with Desperate Block

    Elf Wizard - The most fun of using this is probably Teleport at 4 range, in some map you can just teleport through a thick wall and slowly whittle enemies down with Firestorm or Volcano while you yourself remains safe with Resistant Hide

    Elf Priest - the vamp combo previously mentioned (Talented Healer, Healing Dash, nom face, then out), and since priest does have access to Frenzy Aura the burst a vamp priest have is pretty insane (and all the healing)
     
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  12. SkyCake

    SkyCake Kobold

    I'm trying really hard to work on my mindset for Elves. That's one of the main reasons (and, I like their figures... shush) I picked Elves was to "practice" at playing these types of races/factions. The same reason I play Eldar on DoW, knowing that I'm going to be less efficient. The line between effective and efficient with this type of playstyle is tricky, indeed. But! It can also be exciting.

    So, at level 13 with 13 renown, I think I'm getting better. An annoying problem being RNG... Keeping in mind that we're more likely to remember negative experiences over positive ones (short term), I would be incredibly surprised if I've passed more than 30% of my checks. Same with card drawing, I'm more likely to draw 3 armor cards (that will do nothing), then draw the much needed trait cards that I need to be effective. When this happens on my low level 7 drawf team, it's not as big of a deal. Reminds me of the countless times I've missed 95% attacks on Fire Emblem... And, all that gear I've lost in MMOs. All those needed crits that I didn't get. RNG is cruel! Haha. Whenever I do happen to draw an Elven Maneuver, my warrior totally owns the battlefield. Very rarely happens, but great when it does! Edit: I don't think it's possible for the NPC to roll less than a six...

    SO!!! Thank you so so so much, everyone. It makes me really happy to see that this community is so positive and helpful, y'all are awesome. I'm trying to slow down and be more conservative with my Elven plays. Until I draw certain trait cards, I'm realizing that I can't afford to be hyper offensive like I instinctively want to be. A bad habit from playing Fire Emblem, I assume... Kind of how I play the Eldar, trying to adopt a more "hit and run" strategy for the Elves. Instead of running in, burning all (if any) attack cards then getting slaughtered. The module with the chest piece guardians is really going a long way to make me think and prioritize my actions, all out attacking not being on top of the list. This is also my favorite module, so far!

    Also! Going on about movement, so many enemies have attacks that clear your hand of movement cards. Between the tiny and cramp maps, anti-movement tiles, outnumbered by enemies, enemies reducing move count to 1, the many attacks to get rid of movement cards, spear and ranged enemies... Still not 100% sure on where y'all are even moving to while playing. Most of the time, it seems a Walk would be just as effective as a Dash. BUT! I'm still learning, and hopefully it becomes clear as I try to slowdown my gameplay and be more contemplative about it.

    Edit: Just to reiterate, I really am enjoying playing a full Elven team. I do switch to my Drawf team, at times... But, the Elves are more exciting. So, thank you for not saying, "Then don't play Elves!"
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
  13. Mama Mia

    Mama Mia Hydra

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  14. Sure, you don't want your Elf Warrior to trade blows 1-1 with a Dwarf Warrior, given the HP difference, but

    (1) the mobility might make it possible to bring a second Elf so now it's two-on-one, which can make it much harder to defend against your attacks if the dwarf is out in the open and can't put his back to a wall,

    (2) the aforementioned Elven Maneuvers can grant you additional step-attack cards when you're hit, or movement cards w/ which to escape, meaning that you might have more attacks than the Dwarf -- if you survive the hits, of course...

    (3) and just the threat of being able to aggressively Dash somewhere needs to be considered by your opponent so long as you have still have hidden cards that might be dangerous should you do so

    The speed can also mean getting an extra star from reaching the VP squares first, and fewer turns giving up the majority and VP to the opponent as you leave VP tiles and rush towards the opponent's side of the board if you choose to do so.
     
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  15. Bykuzplastiku

    Bykuzplastiku Orc Soldier

    The mobility of the elf is not entirely about basic move range but number of multi-purpose move cards you can have + the range if you need it. If the map is small running away from an enemy is based on moving not as far as possible but as close as possible, just enough to not being in range. Then you will save space for further running. There are plenty of combo cards that allow to move/doge, move/block, move/armour that can be used that way. Running into corner on small map in one move wont do any good. Imagine you have 3 elves in a column. If a group of monsters is attacking you they will use one move card to get into range and most probably they will stop on the first elf in a column. You can use one card to move that elf on the back of your pack. Then enemies are using another card to move the group usually 1 square only and you run away again. It is the easiest way to run them dry of moves to play terrain and splash when they stuck (volcano preferably and single scamper to get away from own volcano dmg). Just remember to always take position that allows to get back. For example in a tight corridors avoid standing in the corners.

    Repositioning is a key to SP and all cards that allow to perform free move and cantrip are extremely useful to get away from difficult situations. Take advantage of the Superb Evasion and Elf Scamper. I often have used 3 Superb evasions to take advantage of the repositioning and contrary to above i would not advice using elven manoeuvres. If you play it well you wont be hit for almost entire battle and elf warrior is really useless in pure elf strategy. Depending on the situation i would advice to run 2 wizards and one support priest or two priests and one wizard. The wizard (or wizards) is the one that will deal most of the damage in such set-up (60-80%). Elves are extremely good on firestorm+volcano builds versus SP mode - for really fast opponents insight my be good to see if they are able to run from volcano or not. Flash agony also can be used as a firestorm proxy or along firestorm. The idea is to deal as much splash dmg as possible to as many targets as possible. Running away and making enemies to bite on nimbus if you cannot run away. When enemies are low on hp then second priest or second wizard can kill them while they step into attacking range.

    Having 1hp is good way to learn how positioning can be used against AI and mobs.
     

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