[Feedback/Suggestion] What is the point of 'bad' legendaries?

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Pilgrim Bailey, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. Forduc

    Forduc Orc Soldier

    But these ideas don't mix at all. Legendaries cannot at same time be powerfull and not effect MP balance.

    Power of items is after all relative, no matter how "good" an item is, it is always compared to other items and deemed not powerfull if there's something better. This thread is perfect example, Divine items with Block are quite rare, Incense is definetly good item in a sense that it opens up new options and different builds.
  2. Aldones

    Aldones Ogre

    You're just going to shift the feelings you have about Vibrant pain onto the Slippery shield as well.
    That's not "balance", so much as creating a game in which your anti-p2w concerns will simply hold more water.
    You appear have some interesting arguments, but they at lease seem to be conflicting with one another in a way that is making an argument over one point appear to conflict with something else you've said.
    This is just my observation, but it may help to explain why it appears to you as if some people are arguing with you so strongly. You're arguing for several things at once, while using some very specific examples that honestly at this point just come across as Vibrant Pain hate, which I'm sure you don't actually desire me to think. You want me to focus on the fact that weapons exist that may actually be too powerful and too rare, and not that you're really angry at one in particular, right? You also want an explanation for why certain extremely rare items seem to hold very little value? You want to readjust what amounts to the entire loot system so that rarity reflects an RPG player's notion of an item's level of "interestingness", but in such a way that P2W arguments don't erupt afterwards? Can you see how addressing one of these points mildly will simply appear as an argument against the other half of what you're asserting?

    Edit: Another thing that just occurred to me. You appear to be taking a purely MP view of the example item. Remember that the perceived value of some of these items was also probably weighed against their usefulness in the SP campaign. If you want an example of your offending card (cause fumble) in action and being effective, consider any of the higher-level boss fights. When tanking a boss, which is a single enemy with many cards that deal quite a bit of damage, mitigating even one of those big hits can mean all the difference. The dragon has a big hand of something like 8 cards, and they're mostly huge attacks right? Imagine if you could equip a potentially lower-cost item that allowed you to reliably mitigate those big hits each turn? Part of what makes Oquith's Choking/Foul Incense so effective is that it weeds out the "fluff", allowing you to focus a priest on helping a tank each turn with more reliability and less randomness. Reducing the randomness to get the effect you desire is extremely valuable, even if it's only a ability that's useful in very rare circumstances.

    As another pretty extreme example, take the case of Antioch's Figurine. Two Twin Heals and a Sapping Touch. Whoop-de-doo, right? Nobody's probably going to rock the leaderboards with that one. The reason that it's a legendary is that in the SP campaign at level 5 when that item is dropping, this is an extremely rare collection of cards and might actually help you.
  3. I've already spelled out my concerns in this thread time and time again. The loot system is not consistent. There are overpowered legendaries and underpowered legendaries. This game needs balancing, beginning with draw decks, and then onwards to certain items. Bad legendaries should be eliminated because they take the place of other good legendaries that players need to be competitive at the upper ranges. There are alternate ways of fixing this, multiple ways work in my mind. Buff legendaries to be powerful so that some of them aren't dominating the entire game (Vibrant Pain is the example used earlier). Or, nerf the OP items. Regardless of what happens, the original point is that the item I linked is not on par with other legendaries. Its not even of average usefulness. There is a reason that absurdly high amounts of people run warrior draw deck teams right now to high success.

    When complex problems present themselves (card balance, pvp balance, itemization) there are times when based on what people say you end up arguing in the alternative. I find that part of a normal debate.
    Aiven likes this.
  4. kogi

    kogi Ogre

    Are you sure you are just not wanting better stuff, AND grasping at any straw to justify it?

    I agree draw decks are a problem, because they draw too many cards. Lets not drag other issues into it
  5. kogi

    kogi Ogre

    Rly? Can you please post those threads. Because it THIS THREAD , where people are trying to gata DATA, have spent countless hours farming and no legendary yet.
  6. zelink551

    zelink551 Goblin Champion

    Wow this thread became so bitter so fast it baffles me.
  7. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    People need to relax and realize that while you have the right to be heard and speak your mind, you don't have a right to be right - if ideas don't gain traction in a community, you're probably championing a lost cause. Also draw decks are being adressed (even if we don't know how yet) - let's keep that out of this thread. We don't need yet another thread about the same topic/agenda.
  8. vacantskies

    vacantskies Kobold

    Here is how I understand the design philosophy. I think many people have said as much. Items have three properties related to their cards:
    • Rarity - Effects rarity of cards on item AND "uniqueness" of combination
    • Token - Effects quality of cards on item
    • Level - Effects quality of cards on item
    What is "uniqueness" of a combination of cards?
    • Item can have multiple copies of same card(e.g. Vibrant Pain, a divine/arcane item with 3 of a kind)
    • Cards may be unusual for item slot (Can't think of a good example, may be just in my head)
    Cards have two properties:
    • Rarity
    • Quality
    Card Rarity
    • Effects card complexity (e.g. moves with restrictions, hybrid cards, armor with secondary effects)
    • Effects card uniqueness (unusual mechanics) (e.g. Cause Fumble, Acrobatic Flip, Dodge, All Out Attack)
    • Effects likelihood of finding card on an item
    Card Quality
    • Effects Numerical Values (e.g. Obliterating attacks, Sprint)
    • Effects Perceived Value (e.g. Whirlwind Enemies)
    So if you agree that this is the current philosophy implemented in the game. Here are the things I think are up for debate.
    Is the quality incorrect for this card?
    • +/- power tokens
    • +/- level where card introduced
    • +/- numerical/perceived value
    Cause Fumble may be overvalued at Silver and Twin Heals may be overvalued at Bronze.
    Is the rarity incorrect for this card?
    Not sure what you would argue here. You can try to quantify the complexity or uniqueness but this would be difficult. Sometimes this is just based on how often this card appears on items.
    Are the combination of cards on this item incorrect for it's rarity/token/level?
    • Change the combination of cards
    • Change the properties of the cards
    For this specific example, Should this card be legendary?
    I would say yes.
    • All 3 cards are rare.
    • Block is unusual for Divine item.
    • Neither card is commonly found.
    Would I call this card subjectively bad? Yes. For most priest builds I would choose a different item for this slot to increases my chances of succeeding. Would I ever use this card? Yes. Maybe one day I want to make a crazy, blocking machine with 3 copies of this card. Would it be effective? who knows. I hope that we haven't discovered every possible synergy and combination that has a use in the game. This is also my favorite part of the game. Coming up with a crazy/unique/powerful build, which won't necessarily be all three.
  9. Phaselock

    Phaselock Bugblatter

    oh, the devs acknowledge this very well. You are not the first to spot very good legs. Just to give you a bit of history on what was done in May during beta. 400+ items were removed from the game as part of a first stage re-balance. Whole swathes of OP items/cards were simply removed from game/reworked. Vibrant Pain escaped that fate. Point here is this: if the statistics indicate that OP legs are indeed upsetting the balance, action WILL be taken. Time and again, devs have expressed that the emphasis is on enhancing strategic play, retaining fun and reducing the tedium of chasing loot.

    You are arguing to raise the standard, that is fine. However, your suggestion (imo & from others) increases the tedium of chasing loot which goes against the very grain of this game. Pls respect that others do not feel the same way. Pls also be assured that your feedback is valuable and the devs will take your frustrations into account.

    Personal advice to you is to take a break and perhaps the item obsession will fade away.
    karadoc likes this.
  10. Phaselock, I'd rather the best items be commons if it the end result is that the best items are a few assorted legendaries that a person has to luck into, if balance is not possible.
  11. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    You should take a while to reread the thread. In the very second post about loot numbers he says he found a legendary and that isn't the only one. The original %s of ~79/19/1.5/.2 (rounded slightly) seem to be about right based on the data from that thread, if you add it all up. And based on those %s single player is way faster than multiplayer for items.
  12. Galdred

    Galdred Mushroom Warrior

    Balance aside, I find it terribly disappointing to be happier to find an epic treasure than a random legendary. Part of it has to do with item level playing a biger role than rarity(most of my legendaries are at level 9-13), though, as most legendaries are at "sub optimal" level (optimal being the highest level before costing more power token).
    Armoek likes this.
  13. Armoek

    Armoek Mushroom Warrior

    This is exactly how I feel, I think legendaries should sell for a lot more gold to be honest then I wouldn't feel shafted by so many drops. I don't have very much hope for them going back and redesigning items, I think it would be a waste of their time instead of adding more content.
    Aiven and Pilgrim Bailey like this.
  14. piotras

    piotras Goblin Champion

    Just had to share it...

    Finally got a legendary after a long long long MP grind! But not any legendary, got a divine weapon!

    The problem is... that it's Bynzer's Weighted Club. CH can be very a disheartening when it comes to legendary drops :p

    BTW: Before you all go about how Barge is great and Path of Knifes and this and that - stop, don't have any other items to try to put it in good use. It's super depressing seeing that my chance for a legendary ended up being that :p
    Armoek likes this.
  15. I do agree that obtaining a legendary is often met with disappointment. For me, when I see the legendary tag pop up I want to feel excited. I don't feel that. That suggests to me that either the term legendary should be re-named, or something about legendaries should be tweaked in some way.
    piotras likes this.
  16. piotras

    piotras Goblin Champion

    Fully agree!

    Something like 'collector's delight' but definitely not a legendary :p
  17. piotras

    piotras Goblin Champion

    I feel your pain :) I have never got anything good from the epic chests (besides a 200g treasure), so I'm not really motivated to play more than 3-6 MP games. Next time I get a free afternoon I would probably grind the adventures for gold rather than go for the epic.

    BTW: if you want to link an item you can press the green ball (second from the right in the font/text/hyperlink modification bar above the text input window). You can do the same with cards (left from the ball) :)
  18. Martin K

    Martin K Goblin Champion

    How about this:
    - Twin Heal is bumped down from rare to uncommon. There really is no reason why this very straightforward card should be more rare than the more complex Misguided Heal, based on CH's definition of rarity.

    - This means items with Twin Heal will be bumped down from epic / legendary to rare or uncommon. (I don't think people will complain if these don't drop on their coveted legendary drops!)
    The major consequence of this would be that some people would lose book value of their inventory. When this update is implemented, just give each affected player 500 gold (or give everyone 500 gold, yay!)

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