[Feedback/Suggestion] What is the point of 'bad' legendaries?

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Pilgrim Bailey, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. Cause fumble isn't a mystery that only Gnostics possess the mystic insight into. Its just not a very good card for its item value. I am not arguing that there isn't some use for the card. I am arguing that a card that has 2 cause fumbles and 1 twin heals is not worthy of the monicker legendary, and is a waste of what otherwise should be an item that people value and have incentive to grind, gamble, purchase from randimar's, or exclaim happiness at their random luck from a chest about.

    Yes, you can run a niche build with this item. "Ha! I trolled you, I blocked a melee attack from 6 spaces away that you didn't anticipate, one time." Sounds great for a casual game, or if you don't care about beating teams that use great item combos.

    Let me reiterate, this is not a good level 15 legendary item.
  2. neoncat

    neoncat Feline Outline

    The potential for a "niche build" is exactly the point that Sir Knight was trying to make. If the measure of legendary items are how well they match the current metagame, the distribution of items/cards would essentially force certain builds over others, which becomes rather boring.

    (And also as Sir Knight tried to point out, if we're talking about how this particular item or card can be improved so that it offers more utility, that's an entirely different question from whether it's a "good" legendary item.)
  3. Okay let's find some common ground then. My argument is that even in a niche build it won't be particularly useful, if the goal is to win the most amount of games. If, however, you want to accomplish a result that involves griefing melee teams, then, I concede that it is certainly rare and niche and has a purpose.

    I believe that a legendary status should denote quality AND ability rarity. Why not make this item have a useful heal instead of twin heals? Why not improve cause fumble in general on all items to be actually useful? This legendary has potential if cause fumble was more effective, but even then, only 2/3 cards would be useful. Twin heals is brokenly bad.

    This item is an example of a bad legendary, there are good/great legendaries out there. There is a huge discrepancy in quality even amongst legendaries, which seems to make little sense and fly in the face of the whole idea that legendaries only exist to provide rare niche builds.

    I love the idea of non-traditional builds, I think these builds should be good overall, not just 5+ random luck based. Reliability is key to good builds.
  4. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    Some of the very best items in the game are legendary. I'd question if the guys that are posting saying otherwise have actually taken the time to look through the list of items thoroughly before posting.

    Today in my rarities story I got the arcane item with 3 short perplexing ray. That is a super good item - in my opinion one of the best Arcane items in the game (at least once a certain deck type gets nerfed...). Meanwhile 90% of guys got total garbage (or no) legendary items. Many of them are super frustrated by it. And rightfully so. I end up with a great item that fits into almost any wizard build while other guys get doodley-squat. I didn't do anything special for that - I just got really lucky. That isn't fair to everyone else. This kind of variance in the item hunt - when we're talking several month chunks still having huge variance - is just not going to keep players happy. A guy might easily end up getting the rarities store 3 months in a row and not get one of the legitimately great legendary items (I'd say there are maybe 20 or so of them?). This example isn't even for one of the really ridiculous legendary items like the strong arm or vibrant pain.

    If all legendary items were *good* in at least some way, like OP is talking about, then a heck of a lot less people will be super pissed at the week's reset or when they find that bad legendary in a chest after grinding 10 hours.

    Also having bad epic items is basically a nonfactor. This is because a player can expect to acquire one copy of most of these items after a reasonable time frame. I am still missing a few that I'd like to have, but truth is that I have most of the ones I want already. And it has only been about 6 weeks.

    Finally, if what some guys were saying was true - in that legendary items weren't the best - then there is great continuity to the idea that these item's shouldn't be best for PvP balance reasons and allowing anyone to compete. Right now we're not in that situation though.
    Pilgrim Bailey likes this.
  5. voltorocks

    voltorocks Kobold

    one missing link in this discussion is the use of rarity to throttle otherwise abuseable cards. cause fumble isn't the best card when you only have 2 (or maybe three if you have 1 on a sheild): you don't draw it that often, and it's uncertain that you'll even need it/be able to hold onto it when you do draw it. that said, if you were able to farm up this legendary item (i.e.: if it were common or uncommon or even, to a lesser extent, rare) to the point where one priest had this in nearly every slot, you would have at least one in your hand at all times.

    I'm not saying I know for sure that this would be an awesome build, but my point is, some seemingly lackluster cards could be much more powerful if you had enough of them to ensure their presence in your hand; placing these card on the rarest items, then, helps to ensure that they won't be abused.

    that said, it definitely sucks to finally roll a legendary and have it be something that doesn't fit into any build you'll ever run (which, ultimately, is obviously what happened to the OP). I'd personally love to see a crafting system implemented to allow you to melt multiple unwanted items for a chance at a "better" one (i.e.: one you'll actually use) of the same rarity.
    neoncat likes this.
  6. karadoc

    karadoc Hydra

    I actually really like that legendary items are not necessarily more powerful than common items. I think it's great that players can make some powerful builds without needing to have an armoury full of legendary items, and I think it's great that when I find a legendary item, it doesn't necessarily make all my other less rare items obsolete and useless.

    Rare items (as in epic / legendary) in card hunter are mostly about getting usual cards, or unusual combinations of cards - not so much about getting the most powerful cards. The exampled used in the first post of this thread was an divine item with blocks on it. That's usual. It may not be what you want to use, but it's certainly unusual and it may be useful in some unusual builds (such as a build which involves a prist who's job it is to protect the characters standing in front of him - perhaps through smoke terrain attachment or something like that).

    Have you noticed that cards themselves are marked as being either common, uncommon, or rare? Legendary items tend to have more rare cards, but not necessarily more high value cards. It's about collecting rare stuff and openning new options, rather than about just trying to get the 'best' stuff.
  7. hwango

    hwango Hydra

    I don't believe these two statements to be mutually exclusive. As long as all of the best items aren't Legendary, I'm happy. And I still believe there are plenty of items below Epic rarity that have no Legendary counterpart that makes them obsolete, which I feel is a good thing.

    Happy to answer that question - I have not thoroughly studied every item type at every level and rarity. I am still enjoying the experience of getting loot and seeing new items appear that I did not know about.

    However, I have done searches through the wiki too see if an item is worth purchasing from Randimar's, or whether it will be overshadowed by some other item I might be able to acquire in the foreseeable future, and a few other searches for particular cards or item options, or what have you. With that subset of knowledge, I know that if I had access to every item currently in the game that neither my build for MP nor Campaign would consist entirely of Legendary items (or Rare items for those slots where no rarer items exist for that slot and token type). This is definitely true of Divine Items, Shields, Divine Weapons, Class Skills, and Racial Skills, but possibly other items types as well.
  8. Questor

    Questor Ogre

    back to topic:

    dont buy it
  9. Armoek

    Armoek Mushroom Warrior

    In my opinion bad legendaries exist to to keep you chasing the item grind. If they were all decent then people would potentially become content and not be so happy to jump back on the gear treadmill.
  10. hwango

    hwango Hydra

    So you're suggesting that if I only found powerful items that I'd be more likely to stop trying to get more items? :confused:
  11. Phaselock

    Phaselock Bugblatter

    *Time for a joke* - Feel free to ignore this post if you can't take a joke.

    X: "Hey, why do my legendaries suck ? I fought so many battles and finally got to that chest and it gives me crap."

    Y: "Huh, you didn't know ? The devs designed the game such that cards determine the item rarity. So a legendary item just has rarer cards. That's all..."

    X: " No way! I've played 436453765 games and won 54765465 rating and am a pro strategy player (whiner/Melvin). I've never heard of legendary items that are supposed to suck."

    Y: "Your point being ?"

    X: "Change legendaries so they don't suck !"

    Y: "Why ?"

    X: "Because that's how the game should be !"

    Sheesh...Some people never get it... :)
  12. Aldones

    Aldones Ogre

    I can't help but wonder how much of this perception problem could have been circumvented by simply picking a different title for the last two classes or item rarity.
    "epic" and "legendary" carry very common implications regardless of what you know they really mean in this game.
    Suppose how the average player would instinctively respond to these items if the last two tiers or rarity were simply named "scarce" and "singular"?
  13. From a practical standpoint, I'm a type of gamer that would rather have less total legendaries, but make them actually worth the chase so as to reward time investment. I feel rewarded when my efforts net me items that are worth the time investment.

    From a roleplaying standpoint, its hard to imagine someone ascribing the legendary title to a mediocre item. When I think of legendary items in DnD or fantasy, they are always powerful (even if they are cursed). Since there is no flavor text or history on an item, legendary can only relate the perception of quality in this game. What is confusing is that legendary in this game means either "high quality abilities" or "random rare abilities". This suggests a problem with conceptualization of what a legendary means in this game.

    It's my belief (and yes this is my opinion only, not some kind of logical proof) that rares should be the items with rare abilities on them, and legendaries should be the cards with good abilities on them, or with more drastic drawbacks BUT powerful abilities to compensate.
  14. Forduc

    Forduc Orc Soldier

    Two Reasons for bad legendaries:

    A) Cards aren't balanced, legendaries have more of the same card. If you get legendary with less than average card, it will suck.
    B) Items are build based on item level. While both require 1 minor token, lvl 9 item is below lvl 17 item.

    That a fine opinion. Sadly it won't work for free to play game where paying can get you more loot. It also doesn't really work on any PvP game, as it would take unreasonable amounts of time to get good build. Years probably, assuming that every slot had Legendary that is absolutely better than anything.

    Aside from that, example at OP is horribad and doesn't hold water. Maybe find actually bad legendary instead of a decent one.
  15. I agree with point A. There is substantial imbalance in the efficacy of certain rare cards. Point B isn't necessarily true.

    Don't really care to comment on your last point. I've never seen anyone above even 1200 playing cause fumble. The only way it could be useful was if you ran a ton of these cards for trolling.
  16. Forduc

    Forduc Orc Soldier

    That's mostly problem with power of card draw atm...

    Anyways MP should account for very very little when comparing items.
  17. Gerry Quinn

    Gerry Quinn Goblin Champion


    hatchhermit, Shalcker, kogi and 2 others like this.
  18. Martin K

    Martin K Goblin Champion

    Cause Fumble is not bad at all! First of all, it protects your entire party, unless you are stretched very far apart. Second, it doesn't reduce your hand, which is excellent. If you think drawing a card is "so what", look up "card advantage" in any card game strategy advice.

    Yes, it only protects against melee and the trigger chance could be better, but so what. You could bump it down a category for that, because it's likely that you'll have it in your hand for more than one round, so it competes for your two retained card slots.

    Twin heals - Yeah, that one sucks. It has the same quality rating as Healing Presence, which it probably shouldn't.
  19. I'm yet to see a compelling argument as to why these abilities are on a legendary other than "cause its rare bro."

    Someone persuade me how this item is worth legendary status and 2500g in Randimar's or show me a build that is viable in MP that features this item, and defend its usage vs another blue token item.
  20. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Hey I want my priest's deck to be full of blocks. Nothing but block. Block4Ever !!!!

    Wait the inventory system doesn't allow me to do that ?? I can have only 3 block cards in the entire deck ? This game sucks.

    Hold up, I saw a legendary Divine Item that gets me moar block. I need to get it.

    You want to remove that ? No, screw YOU !!

    No discussion.

    hatchhermit and Flaxative like this.

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