I believe any balance fixes should start with adjusting the card values so the item formulas can do their job properly. (I also want to change those formulas, but that's a different discussion.) My primary goal here is the set the values so that Quality = Power and Rarity = Complexity. A card's quality (color) determines the level of the item (add them up and divide by 2 if weapon). The game uses colors and materials to describe them, which I don't like, so I changed them all to materials. Value/Quality: -3 : Tar 0 : Paper 3 : Bronze 6 : Silver 9 : Gold 12 : Emerald 15 : Amethyst There's also a hidden +/- value that adds or subtracts 1 from the value. In my charts I used orange background for -1 and green for +1. For cards that have different quality values for different classes, I included it in each place with the class in (). Cards with introductory levels >6 have that value in []. Left chart is the current values, right chart is my suggestions. I'm not using introductory levels or class differences. I would like to see the +/- displayed on the card somewhere. Suggestions not shown in chart: Heavy Armor changed from Armor/Boost to Armor/Handicap. Remove card draw from Toughness. Spoiler: Armor cards sorted by avg dam prevented I made this list to help me compare cards when deciding where to put each. Quickness Aura: 0.2 k, +2 mov Leather Harness: 0.3 k, +1 roll Toughened Hide Strips: 0.5 k, heal 1 Chain Harness: 0.5 k, +1 roll Holy Armor: 0.5 k, heal 1 Officer's Harness: 0.5 k, no disc Arcane Aura: 0.5, +2 mag Arcane Shell: 0.5 k, +1 mag Rushing Aura: 0.6, +2 mov Sparkling Cloth Armor: 0.6 k, mov 3 Ill-fitting Armor: 1 k, enc 2 Weakened Armor: 1 k, front only Mail: 1 k Reliable Hide Armor: 1 k Spiked Mail: 1 k, 2dam Flight Aura: 1, fly Mystical Drakehide: 1 k, no en attach Frenzy Aura: 1, +3 dam pen Mystical Wyrmhide: 1 k, refl en attach Cloth Armor: 1.3 Hardy Mail: 1.3 k Thickened Mail: 1.3 k Polearm Slash: 1.3 k, melee only, 7 dam Thick Hide Armor: 1.3 k, mov 1 Enchanted Harness: 1.3 k, +2 roll Resistant Hide: 1.3 k, imm acid, poi, elec, fire Rusty Armor: 1.5 Solid Mail: 1.5 k Horned Plates: 1.5, +3 dam Dynamic Armor: 1.5 k, mov 4 Arrogant Armor: 1.5 k, no attach Inspiring Armor: 2, draw Shimmering Armor: 2 k, mag only Crafted Mail: 2 k Reliable Mail: 2 k Grounding Plates: 2 k, imm elec Barbed Platemail: 2 k, 4dam pen Heavy Armor: 2.5 k, enc 1 Enchanted Mail: 2.5 k Toughness: *
First of all, thanks Kalin for taking the time and putting a nicely formatted list like this together. I have one small request though. While I can see the benefits, please, don't duplicate items in the list on the left, as it makes the whole thing more messy and harder to read. Rather, only list an item according to the highest quality and, for those with different qualities, include the class (for which the quality is highest) in brackets. That being said, I don't currently have the time to fully analyze your proposed changes, so I will refrain from commenting on those yet.
But sometimes the highest value isn't used (Invigorating Touch). I did consider omitting values that aren't used (like Heavy Armor on wizards), but some slots use the quality shown on the card (which I did not mark in my chart), and there are always some boots that have the wrong level no matter which of the four values I use. Plus, I'm doing this partly to show how insane the current system is, so I kinda like having the left side so messy and hard to understand.
The class-specific ratings utterly defy logic to me. Okay, I can see why Wizard's Hat would be rated Bronze for a warrior (kind of a thought experiment at best here, but anyhow...). But, uh... Obliterating Bludgeon is evidently Silver when it's in the smooth, manicured hands of a Wizard. Maybe they'll release a staff with 6 of those on it in the next expansion. Update: Looking at it a little bit more, it seems like they abandoned class-specific quality ratings entirely with the expansion. I don't see a single AoTA card with multiple ratings - wish there were a way to nix it for the base set too without mangling zillions of items in the process, as class-specific quality is even more opaque to the player than the +/- modifiers are.
Next, let's look at melee attacks: Notice I changed Touch Of Death from Magic to Melee. Spoiler: all attacks sorted by damage Wavering Faith: 0 r6, both disc 1 Bad Medicine: 2 h r6, poi 2/r Acid Blast: 0 r6, 1 acid Bad Luck: 0 r6, -2 roll Forgetfulness: 0 r6, disc 2 magic Memory Loss: 0 r6, disc 1 Maze: 0 r6 Counterspell: 0 r8, disc 2 magic Mind Worm: 0 r4, +1 disc Unholy Energy: 0 r4, d 1/r 2 dam/non-atk Wall Of Illusion: 0 r8, 3 ill Stone Spikes: 0 r6, 1 spike Hot Spot: 0 r6, 1 lava Perplexing Ray: 0 r8, disc 1 Path Of Knives: 0 r5, 2 dam/move Touch Of Death: 0 p, +2/card Boiling Armor: 0 r6, disc all armor Wall Of Fire: 0 r8, 3 lava Smoke Bomb: 0 r6, 25 smoke War Cry: 0 r10, disc all block cantrip Elvish Insight: 0, reveal all non-elf Savage Curse: 0 r4, +4 dam disc Short Perplexing Ray: 0 r3, disc 2 Illusory Barrier: 0 r8, 3 ill Punishing Bolt: 0 r8, +2/card Wall Of Stone: 0 r8, 3 wall Volcano: 0, all lava Arcane Curse: 1 r2, disc Demonic Miasma: 1 r2, enc 2 Ember Spray: 1 r2, burn 1 Force Bolt: 1 r4, slide 1 Unholy Frenzy: 1 r6, +2 dam Barge: 1, push 2 Burning Fingers: 1 r3, burn 1 Melt Armor: 1 r5, disc 1 armor Flame Jet: 1 r5, burn 3 Dissolve Armor: 1 r10, disc 1 armor Glob Of Flame: 1 r6, burn 3 Cone Of Cold: 1 r6, enc 2 Entangling Roots: 1 r4, halt Winds Of War: 1 r6, push 3 Weak Strike: 2 Lunging Hack: 2, step 1 Weak Chop: 2 c Misguided Heal: 2dam 4 h r8 Long Spark: 2 r10 Shifty Stab: 2 r2, step 1 Penetrating Zap: 2 r3 p Force Cone: 2 r2, slide 1 Sapping Touch: 2 v Fire Spray: 2 r2, burn 2 Magma Spray: 2 r2, burn 3 Spark: 2 r6, -2 block Force Blast: 2 r5, slide 2 Force Cannon: 2 r5, slide 4 Accelerated Thought: 2 r6, draw 1/r Flame Spit: 2 r4, burn 2 Impetuous Blast: 2, all LOS +1/card Chilling Rime: 2 r6, enc 1 Unholy Wellspring: 2 r5, +3 dam Instant Burn: 2 r6, burn 1 Simple Strike: 3 Little Zap: 3 r2 Clumsy Chop: 3 c, disc Penetrating Cut: 3 p Simple Bash: 3 b Lunging Thrust: 3, step 1 Stab: 3 r2 Arcane Spray: 3 r2 Purging Strike: 3, purge Lunging Bash: 3 b, step 1 Draining Touch: 3 v Bungled Bolt: 3 r6, 1 dam Spear Of Darkness: 3 r2 v Acid Spray: 3 r2, 8 acid Short Spark: 3 r4, -2 block Touch Of Pain: 3 v Punishing Strike: 3, +2/card Powerful Spark: 3 r6, -2 block Penetrating Bolt: 3 r8 p Surging Bolt: 3 r6, step 1 Acid Jet: 3 r5, 5-10 acid Jumpspark: 3 r8, 2 target Flash Of Pain: 3, all LOS Ember Burst: 3 r6, burst 1 burn 2 Arcing Spark: 3 r8, 3 target Backbiting Strike: 4, 3 dam Bludgeon: 4 Lunging Strike: 4, step 1 Able Stab: 4 r2 Zap: 4 r2 Unstable Bolt: 4 r4, 4 dam Bash: 4 b, +2 dam Penetrating Lunge: 4 p, step 1 Consuming Touch: 4 v Puncturing Stab: 4 r2 p Sorcerous Bolt: 4 r6 Devastating Spark: 4 r6, -2 block Arcane Beam: 4 r5 Flash Of Agony: 4, all LOS Dancing Cut: 4, step 3 Sizzling Bolt: 4 r10, burn 2 Cold Snap: 4 r6, enc 2 Arcane Burst: 4 r6, burst 1 All Out Attack: 4, double Frost Jolt: 4 r8, enc 2 Freeze: 4 r8, enc 3 Firestorm: 4, burn 2 all Fireball: 4 r6, burst 2 burn 2 Able Bludgeon: 5 Able Bash: 5 b Predictable Stab: 5 r2, +3 dam Reaching Swing: 5 r2, +3 block Chop: 5 c Startling Strike: 5, disc block Big Zap: 5 r2 Impetuous Slash: 5, all adj Perforating Strike: 5 p Pressing Bash: 5 b, move 1 Enervating Touch: 5 v Tricky Stab: 5 r2, -3 block Deadly Spark: 5 r6, -2 block Surging Blast: 5 r6, step 1 Trained Bludgeon: 6 Strong Chop: 6 c, +1 dam Strong Stab: 6 r2 Invigorating Touch: 6 v Penetrating Stab: 6 r2 p Shredding Strike: 6, disc armor Fiery Stab: 6 r2, burn 3 Sorcerous Blast: 6 r6 Potent Spark: 6 r6, -2 block Nimble Strike: 6, step 4 Raging Strike: 7, +3 dam Skillful Strike: 7, -3 block Strong Bash: 7 b Polearm Slash: 7 r2, 2 armor Devastating Blow: 7, +2/revealed Vicious Thrust: 7, step 2 Mighty Spark: 7 r6, -2 block Strong Bludgeon: 8 Strong Hack: 8 Potent Stab: 8 r2 Unnerving Strike: 8, disc block -2 block Sundering Strike: 8, disc armor Anvil Strike: 8, stun Feinting Strike: 9, -3 block Powerful Bash: 9 b Impaling Stab: 9 r2 p Obliterating Spark: 9 r6, -2 block Violent Overswing: 10, disc Controlled Overswing: 10, disc Massive Chop: 10 c, block -2 Obliterating Chop: 10 c Powerful Bludgeon: 11 Powerful Hack: 11 Mighty Bludgeon: 14 Mighty Hack: 14 Obliterating Bludgeon: 17 Almighty Hack: 20
You forgot the important fact that the quality of cards will not be changed. They can only adjust the effects of cards. Or do you really think that they would allow items which are currently rare or epic to become legendary and most legendaries to become something less?
I think you have the right idea, but it is nearly impossible to follow enough to see what changes you are proposing, and more importantly why.
No, I really like the direction Kalin is going with this. The problem is that it wouldn't be a rebalancing, it would be a complete overhaul of the current system. I disagree with the whole, rare cards should be more complex than common cards. Do you really want Clumsy Chop and Barge on legendary items? Currently there has to be more to it. What Kalin has proposed thus far has some major flaws. If you are going to suggest changing multiple card effects, items, the item formulas, etc, go right ahead. Otherwise, I have a LOT of questions regarding your choices. They don't all make sense.
Would you rather have Barge on common items? Actually, by my own rules I could make it Uncommon if I wanted. The only thing special about my suggestions is that I'm the first to try to overhaul the whole card set; the values I've assigned are just what make sense to me. Please ask your questions and make your own suggestions. I started this thread because I felt that an overhaul was needed and I wanted the players to suggest and discuss and argue and maybe do some of the work for BM.
As Questor pointed out, it would wreak havoc with what items people have been trying to collect/have collected (and potentially paid money for via club or pizza). Jon has called that out as one of his main hesitations to implementing more balance changes, so I highly doubt that we will see an overhaul like this happen However, I agree that a drastic overhaul is necessary. I think the next most logical solution is to do the opposite of what you have here. Rather than changing rarity relative to a card's power, I think that the power of cards needs to be adjusted relative to their rarity. Make Barge awesome, make Nimble Strike balanced, etc.
That's sort of the opposite of what I was trying to do: I want to separate power from rarity; that's why all those Bludgeons and Hacks were made Common.
I have to say, it would be much easier to buff Barge and nerf Nimble Strike, as Vakaz has said. I'm not sure if you intend for some card adjustments or not. But hey, if you want to upheave the system and make a whole new set of cards and items... let's go for it. First, Toughened Hide Strips and Arcane Shell. Toughened Hide Strips serves virtually no purpose as-is; it should be Uncommon or at least -1. (Paper -1) Second, Arcane Shell is overvalued at Gold (9 pts). I don't know why you would increase it to 10; if anything it is inferior to Arcane Aura. Moving on to attacks... As I have said, Barge should be an Uncommon card; certainly a useful card in various situations but not something you want in triplicate on a legendary/epic item. Clumsy Chop, Shifty Stab, Predictable Stab, Spear of Darkness, Touch of Death, Puncturing Stab and Spear of Darkness? Why do all of the Stabs become rare? Why is Strong Chop and Bash on the rare list? They do buff damage slightly while in hand, but they aren't very useful in MP. I want to point out that Clumsy Chop does too little damage and a bad effect for being a rare Weak Chop. Touch of Death is a strong card and it scares me to think of it being buffable by Frenzy. Also, Obliterating/Almighty attacks, and anything over 10 base damage should still be carefully controlled item-wise. They don't need to be rare, but the higher damage attacks do need to be kept under wraps. Stuff like BSS shouldn't exist. Violent/Controlled Overswing are quite inferior to Strong Hack/Bludgeon for the 2 extra damage they do. I've always said, Violent Overswing should be Hard to Block 2 or some effect. If they aren't buffed they should at least be Bronze - (2 points). PS: This would make Peasant REALLY BORING.
FWIW, there are already Legendary items with commons in their docket (*glares coldly atHawlic's Handy Axe*). Adjusting what individual cards do rather than a wholesale change in a card value system would be much easier - and much more practical, I think.
Toughened Hide Strips does something no other card does; I consider that alone worth making it Rare. And we need something weak and unusual for tokenless Legendaries. When I started this I was looking for reasons to make melee cards Rare, and decided that range 2 would be automatically Uncommon. Now that I see how few Common cards I have at higher qualities, I'm considering dropping most stabs a rarity level. What happens when they raise the level cap? What kinds of cards would you expect to find on a level 45 Common Weapon? Yes, it is really powerful. How would you fix it? If you make the Vicious Thrusts Gold, that would raise the level to 21 but it would still be. If you make the Powerful attacks Rare it changes the item to Epic, but that just punishes people who don't have any yet.
A level 45 Common Weapon? Well that could be like 6 Almighty Bludgeon you know... I think my point is that some cards come too cheaply without a significant drawback. Look at Infused Greatclub for another example. BSS packs a ton of damage without any considerations. You can just slap it on a warrior and go. The base damage speaks for itself. You can't compete with another weapon. Blarg. Like I said, it shouldn't exist.
When it comes to damage nothing is better than a BSS... except maybe a Hackmaster which relies on 1 big punch and has no steps. When it comes to steps nothing comes close to a VP... but it is a legendary item. So it does make sense that while VP is OP (and the topic of MANY nerf/rebalance discussions), the BSS is OP and extremely common (especially now that the shops have been releveled) but rarely gets mentioned a a problem since everyone has one (or 8). I dont think an overhaul of the card rarity/color really makes sense at this point as it would be a post-facto change which may not even fix the issues that are found in the MP game. I think the only logical thing is to nerf OP cards in effect and for items like the BSS change them to have them in line with the majority of other items. I agree that Touch of Death should remain a magic attack, even if I forget it is all the time.
Melee Attacks, version 2: I lowered the rarity on most stabs, removed the +1 from the Overswings, and dropped Raging Strike to Paper. Now I'm working on the Magic.
Sorry but I have to reiterate: Does your suggested card changes go hand in hand with an item system overhaul? Because once more, having cards like Barge and Clumsy Chop being rare (and thus showing up on epics and legendary items in multiples!) would be bad. I could see having 1 or 2 copies on certain items being there to balance items out, but that's not how things are done right now. Also, what about Strong Chop and Bash? The damage boost is hardly worth them revealing themselves. Don't seem like rare card material to me. While I liked your premise in the beginning, more and more I find you are taking the dev's intent too literally, and losing more and more of the games functionality and balancing abilities. I would forsake the intent for balance any day, especially for something so trivial.
This is my system overhaul. I'm perfectly happy with having some of the best items being Common. I'm not happy having some of the best items being tokenless. A card's power should be reflected in its quality which sets the item's level (otherwise the whole token system is meaningless). I do not want your ELO to be a function of how many legendaries you own. And now, some magic cards to discus: (List of attacks in previous post.) Wall Of Stone is listed three times, depending on whether we keep the current unremovable version, allow it to be cleansed, or allow it to be replaced by other terrain attachments. I changed Touch Of Death from Magic to Melee, and Maze from Attack to Utility. I was also thinking of changing Wall Of Stone and Smoke Bomb to Utility and the illusions to Assist, since none of them are capable of dealing damage.
