Death of Cardhunter as we know it... (?)

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by battlezoby, Jan 25, 2022.

  1. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    I recently noticed that Flaxative posted on the Dis-I'm-not-gonna-stay-it Board:

    "without giving too much away, i recently had the displeasure of running into the limits of what can fit on a card."

    I can only hope that he's not talking about Cardhunter, or at least not PvP cards!

    I mean, hey, Chess is a dead game, unmodified in years, so why don't we just add effects similar to those of "Volcano" and "Whirlwind Enemy" as abilities to the pieces to keep the game alive? Change is good thing, right?

    Ok... I'm going to split this post into just this, and then post more other panic-filled knee-jerk reactions in a one or more follow-up posts below, just in case I regret the later and want to modify and/or delete them.

    Soooo... comments?

    P.s. Yes, my main motivation in posting this wasn't to solicit "likes" on this board.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  2. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    So, again, I couldn't not post after the shock of seeing that. At a minimum, despite Cardhunter being the #1 game I keep coming back to, year after year after year (including everytime I get tired of all the other games, and excluding the time I can't "come back to it" because it's currently my #1 gaming interest) as I'm no longer going to assume that's going to remain the case, nor do expect to adding any more Pizza to my account anytime soon.

    Ever since the "handoff" announcement from Jon, I started trying to figure out what Sir Civil's "motivation" was. After months of frustrating contemplation, it eventually "hit me"...

    "He's doing his job!"

    If you ask any Chess Master, or any huge Chess-fan what should be changed to base game, they'll probably say "nothing" or give suggest some minor tweek. But if you hire someone who's going to get paid to "update the game on an ongoing basis", you're going to get something very different.

    Seriously. "Doing one's job" is normally a good thing, but not necessarily when hired to modify a PvP game that I compare to Chess, and/or Cardhunter!

    Jon wasn't just "doing his job." He created his own company and created his own game. He was following his passion, had huge amounts of design experience, team-leader experience, and obviously enough passion about
    what he was doing to strike out on his own and do it with own time and money.

    Richard Garfield's is the father of MtG, (and therefore effectively all's CCG's) and was an early developer of Cardhunter. After following Richard's gaming career, I think it's pretty safe to say he takes on projects at the rare times that they really catch his interest. Before Cardhunter, he not only made CCG's, but at least one board game of his own design. So pretty good bet his passions caught up to him for a while when asked to help with Cardhunter.

    But both of them, as possibly others, were doing much more than "doing their jobs."

    In my initial post of this thread, I compared Card Hunter to Chess... that's next.

    Disclaimer: As I said, I'm still in shock. Maybe I can better choose my words and/or something thing more productive later on.
  3. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    In my initial post of this thread, I compared Card Hunter to Chess... here's part of the reason:

    Let's say you took a collection of modern game developers who were in the high percentile of being "damn good at their jobs." I honestly wouldn't expect even them to be good enough to make major changes to Cardhunter's PvP without doing more good than harm.

    We're talking about Cardhunter here, not CS:GO, Yugioh Legend of the Duelist, (or more popular online version of Yugioh which is so bad that I'd consider it a figurative crime to even mention it's name here) or the quickly defunct/failed Magic the Gathering: Tactics [A CCG game where you moved your guys on a 2-D board while using CCG cards to fight your opponent - what a concept! I wonder why it failed and got shutdown as a bunch of developers did their jobs and created it...]

    Seriously... I think even Blue Manchu finally dropped the ball (just a little!) when they added in Werewolves as they currently exist.

    And Aloyzo's Arsenal made a huge fuss about how they were going to be really careful to try to not change the balence of the game.

    If I heard similar assurances from Knights, I might be a little bit less worried!

    I had previously suggested a "Cardhunter 2" and even thought of a very interesting, complex, but likely effective(!) way in which new cards, even PvP ones, and even new game-play dynamics could be added to the this game, but be optional while still adding in lots of new content and probably making a lot of a money, or, at least, I'm "guessing" more money in the long run that I'm guessing other plans are going to yield.

    But given that I've been given nearly no reason to think such suggestions might be seriously considered, much-less implimented, I'm not going to get my hopes up. I've been a "9 to 5" employee of someone else before, (although I've had more experience either dealing directly with the heads of a companies [many of them other they years,] or being the head of a company) so I at least I now feel comfortable with not really blaming Sir Civil or anyone below him, even if, hypothetically, the Cardhunter PvP (Ranked and Leagues) gets turned into something that I don't want to keep come back to year after year after year, as I'm doing now. (Even a big Steaming piece of... ooops... sorry must-of forgot what I was going say here.)

    Disclaimer: As I said, I'm still in shock. Maybe I can better choose my words and/or something thing more productive later on.
  4. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    P.s. I previously panic'ed a bit, but enough to post, when I heard at least one developer decided to solict suggestions for card improvement on Dis-I'm-not-gonna-say-it, instead of here. Am I the only one who thinks that the average/typical poster here might truly understand the dynamic of Cardhunter more than the average/typical poster "elsewhere," right?

    P.p.s. My main motivation remains the same, but maybe I'm bit more hopefully of "likes" regarding this one.

    Note-to-self: Maybe Flax is just adding more of that cool flavor text at the bottom that doesn't effect game play. Maybe someone will soon eradicate Covid, and fix the word's economy while lowering income-taxes across the board. I need to think more positively...
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
    fatcat__25 likes this.
  5. So, my friend, I think you may be overreacting a bit. I think Flax and even the mysterious Sir Civil (what are his real motives?) do genuinely love Cardhunter and want it to thrive. As someone who thought this beloved game might actually die and no longer be playable, I say now "beggars can't be choosers." We are lucky we have any developer on this game! While I, too, am nervous about changes that might make the game worse, I assure you that no changes and a stagnating metagame will make the game worse as player base approaches zero.

    I actually trust Flax to try his best and to listen to us and do his best with limited resources. Might we end up with another Mitternacht-esque expansion with power creep imbalance problems? Maybe? But BM already popped that cherry, so loosen up and get ready for whatever KoU send our way. You can complain and maybe influence our new overlords, but give them a chance. So far I think they are doing a great job and the alternative is a dead game, right? Also, you might not like Discord (I said it!), but you gotta realize that you are reaching maybe 4 people here? It is undeniable that there is simply more lively activity and discussion on Discord.

    Also, I don't think Sir Civil is the architect of Cardhunter's doom. I think he is just the employee KoU stuck with the task of crowd control.

    Lastly, don't stop worrying about the game, continue to make suggestions, but do realize these guys are on our side. If they were evil masterminds gutting this game for all the $$$, then they are bad evil masterminds because this game doesn't make much money. I think they selected Cardhunter because it is a game they like and believe in.
  6. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    I actually think that most of our active Discord users are the exact same people who used to be more active here, and are experienced players.

    Anyway, we do intend to make changes to the game. I'm sorry for the panic it causes, but we have no choice but to continue. I think Susurrus made a bunch of a good points, but some of our nefarious plans will be revealed very soon, and then the more grounded worrying can start :)

    (Also, I love Card Hunter dearly...)
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  7. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    I suspect it will be balance tweaks, and there have been plenty of those already requested in both the forums and discord.

    Aside from keeping the game alive, I give TKOU massive props for eliminating the campaign memory leak which has been a problem since at least 2013.
  8. Sir Civil

    Sir Civil Administrator Staff Member

    Very hmmmm very insightful analysis I must say. Susurrus made good and accurate points. Well, I always wanted to be an evil mastermind :D. Anyway.

    The panic is about to begin. We are about to drop a few bombs on the Cardhuntria relatively soon. Hope you gonna like them ;).
  9. Gast86

    Gast86 Ogre

    I can't log on to Discord. It wants my phone number to verify my identity, but I don't have a phone. I do feel I'm missing out on a lot of discussion.
    fatcat__25 likes this.
  10. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    Be creative. I used the number for the FBI fraud hotline.
  11. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    Oh.. if anyone is talking about new cards, and wants some smart feedback, how about archiving here
    so we can comment?

    Honestly, only card I got wind of was talk of nerfing Vengeance... at first I said I throught it should
    be left alone, but then I remembered that the really-well-tuned Cardhunter was, IMO, pre-Mitternaught,
    and, honestly, I can see that one being nerfed.
    fatcat__25 likes this.
  12. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    Oh.. but long story short...

    CARD HUNTER CLASSIC... especially PvP!

    Take all those wonderful ideas for exciting new cards, suggested and/or made
    by people who have played less than 2000 Ranked games/leagues, shove them
    into PvE, shove them in LEAGUES! Shove them into a NEW RANKED MODE!
    Make a Checkbox on Options that says "TRY to not allow new cards in PvP", and
    then at least TRY to match those who check it against one another.

    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
    fatcat__25 and Sir Veza like this.
  13. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    I suspect you're more worried than you need to be.
  14. doublequartz

    doublequartz Lizardman Priest

    TL; DR: PvP balance is very delicate, and any change to it should be approached with maximum caution possible.

    I'm relatively fast at reading, and I still ended up not reading your wall of text. Seriously, you(@battlezoby) are more likely to get your point across if you muster brevity. If the audience cannot be trusted to figure out the details on their own, they cannot be expected to understand such an elaboration either.

    I actually understand having a concern so huge. This kind of problem is not specific to CCGs -- it's not even specific to games. Every type of product is prone to trying to cater everyone. Such an attempt typically results in a product that doesn't cater anyone, because for any user there is some part of it, directed towards someone else, that disrupts their use.

    However, in the case of CCGs, the consequences of trying to cater everyone tend to manifest in one obvious form: Power creep.

    Power creep is similar to global warming. At first, nothing bad seems to happen. But as the realm accumulates more energy, very fundamental equilibriums start to break down, and then you(the developer) cannot really go back. For Card Hunter, I think this equilibrium exists around character health and racial movement, the parts that did not undergo any changes. There is another one around card draw, which interacts with all cards available to players and can go broken (again) any second.

    My advice to devs would be to have a strong vision of how a typical ranked game should play out. If a strategy does not fit in this vision, it can remain in-game; just don't make it dominant. Maybe even leave it unviable, to be on the safe side.

    Still waiting for Unity (WebGL) port.
    fatcat__25 and Sir Veza like this.
  15. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    Vibrant Pain was in the DD recently, and caused little excitement. Even the nerfed version was Top-Tier for a while.

    Mitternacht didn't do you any favors.
  16. doublequartz

    doublequartz Lizardman Priest

    To be fair, the only reason I did not buy it was that I already had two. The game has been around for so long that everyone own everything.
  17. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    Flax - Panic is distracting me from Real Life stuff I got do. Can you do me a favor and tell me (perhaps only me)
    are we getting enough new carding into Ranked that a lot of old builds are going to be obsolete?

    Don't care if they're free, don't care if CH is now $98.88 with no Micro, just if Ranked is gonna see
    a bunch of new builds from new cards. Thanks! (Or tell everyone if you want).
    Sir Veza and fatcat__25 like this.
  18. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    Sir Civil,

    Can I ask something seriously, though hypothetically, to learn more about Knights
    regarding Cardhunter? Chances are you and/or the game will get some benefit from
    the answer.

    It's serious and not-self-gratifying, so a private or public answer would be awesome.

    Hypothetically, if Richard Garfield offered to do some online consulting to help with
    this game, and to do it for free, do you think you'd:

    A) Share many of your ideas with him so he could comment on them seriously?

    B) Take much time to listen to him, think about stuff, and have a serious back and forth? And

    C) Would you be willing to keep it an open-ended ongoing relationship if appropriate?

    I'm very curious, and not just for entirely trivial reasons. Feel free to reply publicly or privately.

    Thanks in advance for any and all response.
  19. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Fwiw, Dr. Garfield consulted in the beginning. I'd hoped to quickly find a link on the CH website, but all I'm finding are third-party articles across the 'Net.
    fatcat__25 and Sir Veza like this.
  20. doublequartz

    doublequartz Lizardman Priest

    The page is not updated by TKoU, and it shows
    along with the rest of Blue Manchu.
    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.

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