Class-based Guaranteed Draw

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by tangmcgame, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Zalminen

    Zalminen Hydra

    Well, as someone who has played Dungeon Crawls / Turn-based Strategy games since C64 days I still have to agree with the others - any more guaranteed draws would already detract from the feel of the game.

    Even though I sometimes have to retreat because the heroes didn't get enough attacks, I've never felt the game is too random. And having to make contingency plans around the unknown factors is what makes a game strategic instead of just a logic puzzle.
  2. tangmcgame

    tangmcgame Mushroom Warrior

    I have yet to see a satisfactory argument for how this would "detract from the feel of the game." All of the usual random elements would be in place. You'd simply have one (1) more option. Mathematically, I'm talking about taking a hand that is 75% random and making it 60% random. You're still drawing 3 random cards, exactly the same amount of random cards as before.

    So again I ask, why does this ruin the feel of the game?
  3. barbalatte

    barbalatte Mushroom Warrior

    I like the idea with talent trees ;) the more options the better
  4. I get where you're coming from, because I get annoyed when I really need my warrior to deal damage and he gets two turns of only armor and block cards. But one extra card a turn would totally change the balance of the game. It means 4 extra damage per turn or 2 extra healing per turn. And there generally aren't that many fights with enemy priests, so the battles will be a lot shorter.

    You only draw 2 random cards a turn, so this would mean that half the cards you drew would be predetermined. More importantly your attacks in a round (and your opponents attacks) will go from 100% random to only 66% random, which will make the game easier to predict and less tense. It also makes blocks worth less, because you are more likely to have a weak card you can use to get rid of the block before your powerful attacks. On the other hand, armor is going to be worth a lot more, because more attacks will mean good armor will prevent more damage. So a lot of cards would have to be changed to make the game balanced.

    I don't think it would make the game more strategic either, because there will be fewer circumstances when you have to adjust your strategy mid-game. It would definitely make the deck-building strategy less important, because less of the cards you play in a game will actually come from the equipment you've chosen. I know it seems like guaranteed attacks wouldn't be much different than guaranteed moves, but the too are not actually all that similar.
  5. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    My short answer to this thread is "No"

    My long answer is. When i play a card game i expect that scenario when im gona finish off my enemy and i draw resource/useless cards for 5 turns and lose the match. Its the nature of card based games. playing magic the gathering, people are familiar with 25%-50% of the deck being land cards (their in game resource) and it can come in spades, or not at all. I'll tell you what though, when you get the perfect cards you need at the right time, feels good bro. Besides keep in mind you guys are playing with early card sets. When you start getting more cards later on which happen to be "Draw card" cards or "Draw until x" cards, things become much better. Adjusting the Tempo of your character decks is important and you will only be able to do so with a higher selection of suites to deal with.
    Donnola likes this.
  6. Donnola

    Donnola Mushroom Warrior

    Total quote on what SurgeonFish said.
    Been thinking about it for a couple of days on how to frase that and what he wrote is just perfect :)
  7. tangmcgame

    tangmcgame Mushroom Warrior

    Welp, this clearly isn't going to win any popular support. I'm guessing this group of players really loves CCGs? I still feel like I'm right, here, that it doesn't hurt the game and that it takes some of the swings out of draws. But I guess that's what people love? Meh, maybe Card Hunter just isn't for me, because "keep retrying until you get a good hand and the dice decide to help" doesn't sound very fun at all.

    I know SurgeonFish says it gets better with better cards but, really, you want new players to slog through the opening game just so they can exercise some control over the game? Okay. Fine. Sucks by me, but fine. Like I said, maybe this game just isn't for me. It looks like a tactical/strategy game. It tries to act like one. But maybe it's not really supposed to be one.

    So cool. I've got nothing more to say in defense of this idea, so this'll be my last post in the thread. Thanks for the feedback, guys.
  8. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Goblin Champion

    Does that mean you won't be using your beta account anymore??
  9. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    I'm not in favor of guaranteed cards - but I could see stuff like mulligans or redraws being enabled, since they have actual tradeoffs (1 less card every time). Also, if you don't like random factor - these kinds of games might not be for you. There are 2 parts to the strategy aspect of the game - maximizing drawing useful cards by having as many of them in your deck as possible, and how you use them if you get them / don't get them. A regular ccg doesn't have the random factor of a strategy game in the dice rolling aspect, and strategy games like XCOM are very random and punishing, so I dont' quite get your argument there Tang. What kind of strategy games do you like? Then again, this is a discussion/suggestion - let's try to not rile each other up just because we don't see eye to eye on everything?
  10. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Goblin Champion

    I hope I didn't appear too antagonistic in my responses. I just strongly disagreed with the suggestion, that's all. And it looks like I'm not the only one by a longshot.

    And for the record, as you might have read in other posts of mine, I have had experience with the low AND high level cards in this game, so my opinion comes from as much experience with the game as anyone else in here, despite not yet having my own beta account.

    Soon, soon....
  11. skip_intro

    skip_intro Ogre

    The bold text says it all. You're not right or wrong, just that you are in the minority of opinion in this matter.

    That last statement just isn't true. This is a deck-building game and as such, not only do your cards get better as you play, but your understanding of how they fit together changes too. It is still perfectly acceptable to sometimes not draw the cards you want or get the dice rolls you require. That's the nature of games in general and this one in particular.

    Most every game is a tactical/strategy game, even Monopoly and Ludo. Ones that are based on one mechanic (the dice roll) like Snakes and Ladders are not. This game is not Snakes and Ladders.

    You're welcome. Please don't throw your toys out of the pram due to this. Play the game!
  12. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    I am even on the far other side of the camp to the point where I'm not sure i like the base move each turn. If i didn't feel it helped the racial difference and enhanced the game that way i would even be against that. So TLDR as much carddraw randomness as possible is good for a ccg in my opinion.
  13. FalconGK81

    FalconGK81 Orc Soldier

    Mark Rosewater (lead designer for Magic: the Gathering) in his weekly design column has defended the lands mechanic of M:tG by pointing out that players not being able to draw lands makes every game matter, and makes any player be capable of defeating any other player. He points out that many other CCGs have come out that have tried to "fix" the "resource-screw" problem, but they only make their game worse. The random element of the game is a GOOD thing for the game, otherwise it would turn into chess, where the superior player always wins. This may sound like a noble goal, but part of the fun of the game, part of what makes it so alluring (to both expert and new players) is the feeling that you could win (or lose) ANY game. New players have a chance at beating the best players in the world, and the best players have a greater challenge in trying to "solve" the game because they have the element of randomness to combat (by deck building choices, or play decisions).

    The same is likely true for CH. I don't want the randomness "taken out" or "diminsihed". It's part of the beauty of a card game.
    IshidaTsuki and Donnola like this.
  14. FalconGK81

    FalconGK81 Orc Soldier

    It occurs to me that the OP may have a bit of a point in regards to a single player experience. Losing to random computer because you can't draw a good card 5 turns in a row is a bit "feel bad" in a way that losing to another player int he same manner may not be. That said, as others have pointed out, this is likely a problem that is fixed by leveling up out of the "bad" cards, and I think the suggested fix is bad for multiplayer play. Will some players be discouraged away from the game in the short period between the start and when they can level out of this problem? Perhaps. Is it worth a drastic change to the game? I don't think so.
  15. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Dont misinterpret completely friend. Your feedback is important as well as your opinion. We are simply trying to explain on our end why we think that is a bad idea. If we could come up with a method where that would work in the context of Card Hunter, than maybe we could push for a change on that front. As it stands and is pitched at the moment, it just doesn't really work out.
  16. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    I was in the shower and figured out how this could work. Make the guaranteed movement card instead a guaranteed action card based on race/class combination. Would be a hybrid card that would allow a single move or action in place of a move. We have hybrid cards in the game already and this would be an idea to support your idea you could pitch to blue manchu.

    Elf Warrior: Dash+ Simple bash (Could walk 4 spaces or deal 3 bludgeoning damage to an enemy in range)
    Dwarf Wizard: Walk+ Zap (Could move 2 spaces or deal 3 damage to an enemy in range)
    Human Priest: Run+ Minor Heal (Could move 3 spaces or heal an ally 2 in range)

    The only problem with this would be the added complication when someone logs in for the first time.
  17. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    SurgeonFish - how about the guaranteed card'd be upgradeable somehow? By levelling?
  18. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Or maybe it could have its own card suite too. I dont like the idea of leveling a guaranteed draw, but maybe you could change it with another card would be interesting.
  19. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    Sure, a one card suite with very limited power? Could work I guess. Question is what kind of item it would be.
  20. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Prolly just a single card. wouldnt be an item i wouldnt think. unless it would be like a ring slot *shrug*

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