Celestial Forge New Cards Preview

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Sir Civil, Jan 27, 2022.

  1. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
    Pretty sure their adding at least a new class, as some cards listed as "Staves"
    -> Click to see Staves <-

    Glad to realize that you don't like your suggestion.
    Problem is that they ARE taking suggestions.

    If so many people out there are smart enough to
    improve Cardhunter, then they're on a level with
    Jon and Richard, and we'll probably see a huge
    huge huge huge huge huge huge influx of good
    new card games, video games, boards games, etc...
    You know... with all those awesome game designer
    out there!
  2. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    Staves is the plural of staff.
  3. Maniafig

    Maniafig Thaumaturge

    It's always exciting when new cards are revealed, it's been so long since back in CM when it happened. I still have the same giddy excitement as back then! In the meantime, I want to use this post to compile my impressions of the cards in preparation for the playtest. I'm not sure if I'll participate, but that won't stop me from imagining white room scenarios to explain why such as such card is totally imbalanced!!

    I should note that I am aware that a lot of factors go into a card's design and assigned quality. There's power considerations, flavour reasoning and some cards are intentionally pushed or underpushed for the sake of having additional levers when designing items. Cards don't exist in a vacuum, but in a deck, and a deck is ultimately comprised of items and not cards. I'll try to keep that in mind, but I'll also be looking at some of these cards from the perspective of "How good is a theoretical item that's mostly comprised of or built around this one card?". (Yes I'm talking about Iai Strike, if it's not obvious.)

    Afwul Flames: I like this, a neat compromise between having high base damage, high DoT and not outright being a better Sorcerous Blast. A plain and simple card befitting a Common status, overall an elegant design.

    Brain Freeze: First and foremost, finally a new Cold card for Arcane Items! I never liked that it was limited to Cone of Cold until now! As for the card itself, it looks pretty strong. Decent combination of damage, range, discard and encumber. Also notable for discarding the oldest card, rather than a random card. Will be curious to see how good this is in PvP.

    Curse Attraction: Super cool card! Spell Skill for Handicap cards is a neat idea and opens up a lot of potential. Three copies of this on a (majortoken)item faces stiff competition, so I am curious to see whether it might need to be tuned down to Silver-, or maybe it's good enough as-is! I'm curious to see whether Ancient Grudge Human Wizards will play this or not.

    Curse-Hardened: This one raises some questions, such as whether it triggers when your own Raging Strike triggers. I think this is one that I'll need to try myself to realize it works with a lot more cards than I thought. I've long bemoaned that Warrior Skills are boring, but this card reeks of potential!

    Curses: A threesome of new traits to give some more variety to tar-quality handicap traits. These are in general better designed than a lot of tar quality traits I think, Amnesia pushes an active playstyle that doesn't have a lot of retained cards, Exhaustion is a pretty real handicap but might work well for some kinds of immobile support characters and Hunger is the kind of trait that can be build around with a build that doesn't use healing. Interesting set overall! Also Curse of Hunger's discard implications are cool and good for PvE.

    Dark Pulse: Non-selftargeting Firestorm with an interesting bonus effect. I wonder whether the non-penetrating chip damage on this will be worth it or not, armor kind of laughs it away. I think this card is really cool, but I'm not sure if it's actually good. Will be curious to test this one out.

    Drown: Conceptually cool, in practice it's a Bigger Zap with a conditional terrain generation attached. Might be more interesting if it were melee for Blind Frenzy Wizards that run Tasty, Tasty?

    Emptiness: Conceptually very cool cards, the Anti-Jeweler has arrived! In general I would expect these cards to be a small cut above cards of an equal quality, to make up for the downside, but not too much since it's meant to have synergies with some other cards. Empty Mind is a Heal/Purge package in one with some conditions, Empty Body sits nicely between Hardy Mail and Reliable Mail, Empty Tracks is an upgrade over Sprint and I think our highest base value move card now, and Empty Palm is the cheapest block any that also draws a card. These four all seem pretty decent to me. Empty Fist is the one that confuses me though, it's Bronze+ and 8 damage, but regular 8 damage cards without all the restrictions are Bronze? It doesn't sit right with me, I'd expect it to be 9 damage to stay a little conservative and not step on Overswing's toes. I also think that the self-telegraphing nature of these cards is interesting.

    Frozen Core: First and foremost, I say that I think this card is really cool and I really want this to be good! Another Cold card for Arcane Items! Which is why I'll also say: "But Firestorm already exists." As-is I think this card would be overvalued at Bronze, there's just too many things working against this in anything but an Elf Wizard self-life-fading competition. " Getting rid of the self-targeting would immediately make it a lot more interesting and also not suicide with Cooling Laser.

    Grinding Aura: Another card where I really like the concept, support for a discard wizard! But the payoff itself seems kinda meager, barring some kind of Jim's Magic Missile-tier wombo-combo shenanigans. I think a discard wiz would rather run cycling traits to get more Perplexing cards in play or something like Spell Skill to try to get a 2-for-1 card advantage.

    Honorable Attack: I think it's a neat card overall, an inverted Sneak Attack with Subtle Arts synergy. There's not too much to say about it other than that, which is fine of course. Not all cards should be super exciting.

    Honorable Block: The more I think about this card, the less I like it. How would this play out in maps with 1 victory square? Isn't it annoying if the enemy just turns their back to you and you can't attack them, and isn't that just dishonorable? Why does it give Dwarf Wizards even more hard to block on their electric and arcane cards? I think the Keep on the block should go, and the hard to block effect should be only for melee cards. It also seems really pushed at Silver-. Probably also totally busts open PvE.

    Hot Spring: The card art is really funny and cute. Comfy Gobbo! As a card itself I can see some wacky strategies with it paired with Roots, but I doubt I'd ever use it myself. I think this is the kind of card that shouldn't be good by design, kind of like Boo!, because it's annoying to play against.

    Hungry Plate: Really cool flavour on this one, sadly can't be played alongside Tasty, Tasty Staff though. This one self-telegraphs, but also stacks nicely with other armor cards. Definitely a good pick-up for PvE.

    Iai Strike: Iai Strike is really super cool. I also think it's just really weak, with just 5 damage this is like a Barge-tier card which I wouldn't flinch at being Silver, or even Bronze quality. I understand that it's meant to work with Subtle Arts, but even then SA does nothing to actually buff this card since it doesn't step or roll a dice. I hope this one gets something, anything, to give it an extra oomph. I want to like this card, but if I'm using SA then my sights are on Honorable and other step attacks like Nimble Strike, Laser Thrust, Penetrating Lunge or Lunging Bash.

    Icy Apparition: Another really cool card, this one works with Subtle Arts, it can do crazy damage with Cooling Laser, and it rewards really aggressive and forward-pushing Wizards. I hope we'll get PvP-playable items with some copies of this, this one is really exciting.

    Lunging Drain: Plain and simple new card for Vampires to use, and works with Subtle Arts. A solid design overall.

    Mempo: Another really cool cards, a sort of anti-warrior card for warriors. The armor effect here is better than Polearm Slash's and it having a range of 3 and 3 range is the cherry on top. Really glad Helmets got a new fun toy with this card.

    Restless cards: I don't find these to be too eye-catching, I don't think Traveling Curse has ever been a deciding factor in my games and it's quite likely the deck shuffle effect just never pays off. Restless Seal does have a guaranteed block without a dice roll, which is neat. Restless Talisman can be clutch to block Unholy attacks, too, which might make it a solid pick for some specific modules.

    Stoic's Blade: Arrogant Armor but more specific and on an attack card. Really cool! I look forward to using this in PvE! I really like the flavour on this one, as well as the mechanics. I'd like to see more of these kinds of interesting hybrid attacks, like Polearm or Vengeance.

    Subtle Arts: Probably the most exciting card here, the decklists people will run this with will be real interesting. Support for dice roll moves and step attacks. Works with a lot of the expansion cards themselves. I really want to play around with this card, though I wonder how long it'll last. Also: Laser Thrust support hype! Dice roll boosting hype!

    Vow of Poverty: Cool card to push Priests to use an Empty build. Not having to discard cards means being able to save them to the perfect moment to act, but also at great risk in the face of enemy control cards. I wonder if the duration of 2 here is too low or not, I guess testing will show whether it is or not.

    Winter's Embrace: Another cool card (all Cold cards are cool :rolleyes:). I do wonder again whether the chip damage lacking penetrating or unpreventable like Dark Pulse will make this whiff in most cases and do nothing. This does help mitigate the damage from being aggro as a cold wiz, I'm just not sure if it's what cold wizzes want or need. Still, hype to see Cold wizzes finally have a trait to call their own!

    Overall: A really interesting set of cards! Lots of new toys to play around with, and more tricks to totally dunk on Handicap Quests! Remember when there were slots without Handicap cards? I do! And I'm glad those days are over, Handicap cards are cool!

    I'm not sure if I'll be actively testing, I might test some of these cards for PvE for laughs. I'm just happy we're getting more expansion content! I really enjoyed the Eastpass modules, hyped to see what the Celestial Forge modules will bring!
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
  4. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    My statements about Subtle Arts leaned this direction, but I believe I really should explicitly state this re: many of the new cards—not to mention the rebalanced old cards.

    No telling just how much Flaxative had to do with it all—and I suspect it's a lot—but many of these additions/changes just scream out, "We [Knights (anew + 1 CH/BM veteran)] have pored over you players' Card Ideas thread, actualizing your feedback into tangible game-changers. We've also listened to you all moan and wail constructively criticize at length the particular parts of Castle Mitternacht that didn't turn out quite right (and unfortunately got left hanging in the Void *badum*pssh*), and we're likewise directly implementing some of this stuff. Thanks, players, for your input and loyalty over the years." That demonstrated sentiment elicits so much appreciation from us the players (I dare speak for us all).

    Flaxative, psilence and fatcat__25 like this.
  5. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    It shouldn't trigger when Raging increases damage, since you're not "playing" the card.

    I hadn't realized this was being given to warriors (most Attack Handicaps are wizard or priest only). Checking the card database, the only relevant cards available to warriors are:
    Raging Strike
    Massive Chop
    Arcane Feedback (!)
    Empty Fist
    Stoic's Blade

    Also, this may be most useful as a counter to opponents playing handicap decks.

    Where are you seeing the +/- for quality?

    I wonder if it triggers for each card discarded.

    I'm going to try this in PvE.

    Whoa.... Laser Thrust is a move card with a die roll. So are Surging Shield Block and Hard To Pin Down.
    Flaxative and fatcat__25 like this.
  6. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    Hi! I am, in fact, the lead game designer on Card Hunter right now and thus far Celestial Forge is all me. Happy to take credit for this ;)

    Very validated by the reactions so far.

    And Dodge and Jump Back :cool:
  7. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    Considering the vibe, I'm totally unsurprised by this.
    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.
  8. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

  9. Frostguard

    Frostguard Thaumaturge

    Decided to leave a few remarks here as well. I'll express gratitude for the boost to the game here too, even though I did it in the other thread already.

    I'm probably not going to go through all the cards one by one.

    Awful Flames: On one hand, I find that initial damage is rarely the priority with fire cards. On the other hand, burning 2 duration 2 is quite respectable on its own right, so if you get that on a card that deals six up front with decent reliability, that might change things. This is the only new fire card from the expansion, but I'm not going to complain - fire probably got a whole lot better through rebalances anyway.

    Curses: These all look very reasonable and flavorful designs at first glance. Not much more to say about them; I'll be looking forward to see the items.

    Cold cards: I'm glad that cold actually gets its own trait at long last. It was really something we were missing. The self-healing is an interesting touch, but I'll probably actually build a cold wizard now that encumber is not the only trick the type has. Step three on a magic attack is intriguing.

    Empty: A little strange, but definitely a novel idea. No further comments as of now, we'll see how they play out.

    Drown: Magic Crushing on arcane items - with this and Tasty, Tasty, we'll soon get crushing wizards, won't we?

    Honorable Attack: Simple, elegant, great.

    Honorable Block: I'm a little undecided on this. Interesting idea, but how does adding hard to block to your own attacks relate to the card's theme? The block having keep is also a little bizarre. I guess you do have to keep this in your hand for it to work so that's a pretty hefty cost on the long run but I don't know how frustrating this will be to play against.

    Hungry Plate: You need to kill almost two enemies adjacent to you for this not to hurt you consistently. That's quite the cost, and it makes me think that this is probably much more of a singpleplayer card - I don't see it working in multiplayer though I could be wrong. Still, the concept is very intriguing, and I absolutely understand that if this was tweaked to be viable in multiplayer, it would make many singleplayer modules trivial.

    Iai Strike: Really cool. The damage seems a bit low, that's true. I suppose that teleporting behind the target's back could be very relevant in some more specialized formats like Death March, but then a Nimble Strike can achieve the same result. I agree that this could probably use a little buff.

    Lunging Drain: Very nice, and possibly overdue. Not much more to say.

    Mempo: Cool and all, but we finally did it, guys! Adaptable to Sonic actually does something now!

    Restless: I like the idea, but like others I have to wonder how relevant the shuffling will be on average.

    Stoic's Blade: Again, simple and nice design. It's an attack/handicap apparently, but depending on the matchup, it can protect the holder from fire, encumber, and many similar effects. Might be worthwhile, and the damage's still decent if you end up not needing it.

    Subtle Arts: The idea is really interesting, but locking the user out of high-damage cards is probably quite painful. Laser Thrust dodges this just so, which I assume was part of the intent designing this card. Personally I'd probably prefer something like the attachment getting discarded when you play a high-damage card (before you make the move, so you wouldn't get the extra move for a Vicious Thrust), but that might make it too powerful as it'd need no commitment. I suppose this is fine as it is.

    Of course, evaluating cards like this completely ignores itemization, which will ultimately be the decisive factor, so again, we'll have to see what the expansion will have. A few notes:
    1. Speaking of itemization, while this is not a wishlist, Scorching Rays is a pretty cool card which is nevertheless nowhere near the power level its amethyst rank would imply, so I see no reason why we can only have it on one legendary that no one in their right mind would ever want to use anyway.
    2. We still don't have any meaningful form of Unholy support for priests, which I hope will come along eventually. Restless Talisman is as close as it gets, though it won't stay around for too long in most cases, but I appreciate it anyway. That and Dark Pulse - they both look pretty intriguing.
  10. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    The more I look at this, the less I like it... the flavor just seems off, and it feels a bit too powerful. Also, dwarves already have Toughness for "blocking" attacks from behind. I'll suggest an alternative in the card idea thread.

    It blocks 40% of its own damage, so one death per round is enough. Still not recommended for PvP.

    Note that when you attack and move, the enemy will turn to face you after the move, not before. (I found this out trying to make a map with a Harpy and Robots.)

    It's a bit odd that these ascetic monks have skills designed to combo with lasers and rockets. With the damage limit, this may see more use on priests and wizards, who each get a new step attack.
  11. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    It doesn't seem good for PvE either, but I haven't playtested it yet. Was it intended for use and discard, like a chain harness (the dead card on an item you want)?
  12. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Read the link in the original post. $;^ J (There are some 3–4 Empty cards.)

    The flavor of the character using Empty cards is one not grasping onto treasure—one not holding Victory Squares.
    fatcat__25 likes this.
  13. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    That's too bad. It's really a very bad direction IMO.
    When a CCG starts getting "new card type" and then a bunch of other cards rely on that new card type:
    a) It's often a sort of "prebuilt" type of build, something the dev's intended as is obvious to everyone, but more importantly,
    b) It's just sort of not useful until you start getting enough of them, and then they get too powerful, and then they
    move onto a new one. Than another, and another, and another. Bunch of worthless cards that feed off of them.
    But still haven't seen them, so I hope I'm wrong. It's not really something that was in Alpha-MtG and pretty much
    not in original Cardhunter, except for the really basic stuff like fire, and heal. And "Empty" sounds like it's
    pigeon-holed anyways, because it's something to run on maps without victory squares.
    But can't tell much without seeing the gear, and commonality and cards, etc, etc, etc...
  14. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    Just looked at the tweeked cards. Buffed fire. Always thought Martyr should probably
    come down (but not too much, might make Priest unpopular) but, honestly, expected
    it to be nerfed even more than that they did. So, not wanting many changes, looks like
    that's what they're doing.

    Unless someone is plannig to change each of the those cards a little bit more and more ever
    month, day, minute, millisecond, etc, so no one "notices" too large a change.

    P.s. What is this garbage about having to wait like 500 seconds between posts?
    Is someone annoyed that I stopped posting 8000 characters posts and they
    want me to go back to them? Never saw that before a week or two ago.
    Getting logout off like crazy too.
    Oh... want to safely make some new cards.... DO IT IN A LEAGUE FIRST!
    (Stinks that test.cardhunter.com is down... don't really want to uninstall
    cardhunter in order to play cardhunter... kind of like blocking a punch
    with your face - especially if the reinstall is buggy.)
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.
  15. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Did you follow the instructions to switch the game to beta mode? That's how to access the test server now, which is up. Join the party! $:^ J Or, if you're having tech difficulties, let the Knights know in the Celestial Forge Playtest Info thread or on Discord in the #ts-bugs channel?

    P.S. No need to try new cards only in a league (play a few matches in a limited timespan once or twice per day if your schedule lines up) when a whole test server (with usual ongoing Constructed Ranked plus Campaign options) is available. $:^ ]

    P.P.S. When I see the forum acting like it's logging me out, it's switching from HTTPS to HTTP for no good reason. Generally, I hit back on the browser and follow a link to "Forums" (confirming it's HTTPS), and it takes me back to the forum home still logged in after all. Annoying, yes, but workaroundable.
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2022
    fatcat__25 likes this.
  16. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    I meant the Leagues could be a way to test new cards without
    the need for a seperate test sever, while still allowing people to
    play with the unmodified set. If they really need/want to
    spread the new cards all around, it would be after it's
    tested out well in Leagues.
  17. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    After building and playing with this, I changed my mind. (I think my mind-change is what mixed me up on whether or not it even was a Handicap for a while, which launched some confusing conversation in Discord, sorry.) To share my thoughts from Discord:
  18. Shalicter

    Shalicter Kobold

    Thank you for your work, Flaxative! It is exciting to see new content added. I have three points:

    1. Will anyone update the wiki? I really hope so, it adds quite a bit to the game.

    Honorable Block seemed way too powerful to me when I first read it, even before learning that Maniafig, Frostguard and Kalin were thinking along similar lines. My first impression is that the card is not too good to be silver: it is too good, fullstop. It seriously hurts your opponents blocking ability - forever. Other cards trade off damage to do that just once. And that is the lesser of the card's powers; for, on top of that, Honorable block blocks anything, with complete certainty, and you can keep it indefinitely. It nearly turns Spin Around into Toughness, for Melvin's sake! A strong addition to the already superior arsenal of blocks available to dwarves. The 'only from behind' limitation is significant, however, and does make the card more situational... but is it enough to counterbalance the amazing power of the rest? My hunch tells me 'no'; but, then, the vastly more competent Flaxative seems to think otherwise... so I am not certain. Testing will tell.

    3. Stoic Blade does not look like an Attack-Handicap hybrid card to me. More like an Attack-Boost hybrid. Arrogant Armor is not an Armor-Handicap hybrid: it is a Armor-Boost hybrid. Would Arrogant Armor become an Armor-Handicap hybrid, were its text changed into the one appearing onto Stoic blade, i.e. "If a card would be attached to you, discard that card instead if it isn't a Handicap. Keep. "? I do not think so.
    fatcat__25 likes this.
  19. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    It seems everyone's locked out due to the owner having disappeared. $:^ [
    $:^ ]
    I do think so. That is exactly the difference between Arrogant Armor and Stoic Blade. AA gets rid of everything—in fact, I might argue it should be Armor|Utility...and am gonna (lol) suggest that later. $X^ D But Stoic Blade, it only lets Handicaps attach to you. That's quite a Handicap.

    Edit: Nope, I got reminded, Utility needs to be played whereas Boost/Handicap merely react. Arrogant Boost it is!

    Regards, $:^ J
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2022
    Shalicter, Sir Veza and fatcat__25 like this.
  20. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    What if he died? Many of my friends younger than me have.
    Does anyone here have experience with sites and/or maintenance bots? Mine is from the 90's, so it really doesn't count.
    I also recommend the new webmaster not already be on Social Security. Just sayin'.
    I suspect much of the data can be copied and pasted, and I'm willing to help with the grunt work, but I'm too old and cranky to try to learn css and whatever it's new replacement is.

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