Caverns of Chaos

Discussion in 'Adventure Discussion and Strategy' started by Fortold, Oct 29, 2015.

  1. Fortold

    Fortold Kobold

    Is there any discussion on making this a real thing? Someone the other night had commented that it was being looked at. After a year long break, I swung back by the game and was SUPER excited to see a campaign quest I could grind instead of multiplayer. Little did I know that this wasn't meant to be played past level 6 or 7. Each time I have progressed to that point, the "random" generator gives me 3 wizards with useless acid builds vs mobs with nothing but move cards and 11+ dmg cards. I understand that the AI here has always been suspect, but does it need to be that rediculous for the people who play all the time to finish this dungeon? I understand bad RNG, hell...I'm playing Everquest on an EMU and that place is nothing but RNG. That being said, how about a chance to see the rest the zone without crippling the draw when things get "good".
  2. Mama Mia

    Mama Mia Hydra

    You don't have to finish CoC to get dem sweg legendaries! No, but in all seriousness, I haven't gone pass lvl 7 either. But I did get some nice loot.

    That's what the legendary characters are for :)

    BTW there's already a CoC thread in the General Chat sub-forums.
    FDrybob and Happenstance like this.
  3. Happenstance

    Happenstance Thaumaturge

    Caverns is the first thing in this game that has made me dummy spit, it's really that difficult.

    Having said that, it's doable, but if you get certain mobs on certain maps with certain characters, you're dead. So, you need a sustained run of luck to make it through. My very first run, I made it through to node 10 and then Blitzy said, "You got a real purdy mouth, boy," and whomped me in about three rounds.

    I guess it took about 30-40 tries in the end? I died before node 6 a few times (drew heavy ranged mobs like adult wyverns), died on 6 and 7 a lot, died on 8 and 9 a little less frequently and made it through to node 10 five times, where I faced Blitzy (lol), Xana (lol), Troll King (with fast armoured melee mobs that boxed me in, no armour removal DEVS IF YOU MAKE ONE CHANGE TO CAVERNS HAND OUT A FEW SUNDERINGS TO THE PEASANTS PLS, lol), Oak King (got him to 2HP and then my only character had piercing and slashing vs tough bark, rage of a thousand suns), then the Elder Mind, who I finally beat.

    So that's what you're likely in for. As Mama said, the upside is you'll collect quite a few legendaries when you make it past node 7.
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  4. Bykuzplastiku

    Bykuzplastiku Orc Soldier

    After playing >250 (or maybe even >500 i do not keep exact track of it) i got feeling that certain amount of luck won't hurt you in the CoC ;) but...

    It is less difficult and unreal then i thought at the beginning. There are certain rules one have to follow to have successful runs. Recently i was able to win 19 battles in a row (got twice to the 10 lvl and died mostly because i was tired and it was late). For sure changes to the mode can be introduced but not to make it easier... i would look for a bit more balanced difficulty. I mean cutting out extremely easy battles that occasionally happens on the lvl 6-9 and get rid of very small open maps.

    For some reason for me lvl 4-6 battles are the most difficult. Very often i get there week characters ver. big pack of enemies on the maps that you cannot take advantage on positioning. After that lvl 7-9 most of the times are quite easy (only occasionally there is a very though challenge comparable to that on lvl 4-6). Very often my subjective difficulty lvl is something like this:

    x - 1 - 2 - 4 - 9 - 8 - 6 - 5 - 5 - 10!

    Maybe it is on purpose?

    Small maps are devastating. If the map is thigh, enemies are numerous and fast and supported by one or two groups of shooting mobs you are dead almost no matter what. Although the CoC was changed or i got luck because i do not see cross-bowers any longer... and i got them all the time earlier <edit: i get them back and are not happy>.

    Also it wont hurt to get rid of certain characters that got terrible builds. Like this packed with flying dwarf/blob priest (really range 2 move combine with dozen flying cards? W.F is that?).

    My question is do the developers collect stats on the mobs / maps / characters and win to lose ratios? That should be interesting.

    PS. 10 tips from my current experience (it is nothing special so forgive me if i am obvious):

    1. Know your personnel...

    There is limited number of characters. Learn their decks as good as you can. Certain characters got decks that favours them to be tankers and others can deal very high dmg but must be cared after and can be useful only if you play in certain way. Others are very limited in what they can do and you have to take it into account.

    2. ...and enemies

    At this point you should know mobs decks and their tendencies but be careful to not underestimate their capabilities. Look for a high dmg dealers and shooters. Maybe they die in SP easily but here they can have an advantage of the support from other creatures. All shooters, wyvwerns except babies, blobs, invisible spiders, punishing strikers or splash attackers are dangerous. Also look for a heavy golems, high end mercenaries and long range treemen. Fear Mind Flensers, lava throwers, rusty beasts and armour piercing mobs.

    3. Get a plan

    After you draw characters / maps / mobs do not act until you judge it all very carefully. Most of my loses was due to a bad planning because of the overestimation of my chances on stationary defence were there was non or a bad plan of attack. <edit: do not forget victory squares - every round there is equal of killing one enemy!>

    4. Be patient

    CH can be a very fast game but it wont work in CoC that way. Occasional you can have easy battle that you can click trough but many of my loses comes from the haste. If you estimate at the beginning that battle will be though take very extra care on literally every card played or pass clicked. This is also important at the end of the battle when you got low hp and enemies are few. It is easy for mistake then. If you dont like that type of gaming be prepared for the frustration and many loses.

    5. Concentrate on the heavy dmg dealers

    Do not waste your attacks to kill mobs only because they are first line of attackers. They might be only a distraction and if the second wave reach and you cannot eliminate them in one round it might be over. Look for an opportunity to kill shooters especially if you get cards to make it in one blow.

    6. Move!

    Getting from the attack range of your enemies. It is almost always a priority. A single saved hp can be a difference at the end of the game. But do not run wildly, move as close as possible to save as much room for further retreat. Shooters will shred you to pieces if you allow them. Lightning wisps, fire demons, archers etc. do not plan your line of defence where you can be shoot from many directions (if map allows). Don't forget to shuffle your characters in order to move one wounded to the back for a rest/heal. Only occasionally there is a reason to forfeit character to get advantage, usually it is bad idea.

    7. Use terrain

    Mobs tends to get in a way of one another or freezes if you put them in complicated tactic situation. Try to make it as hard as possible and keep as much obstacles between you and attacking enemies as you can. Use area of control of your characters to slow their progress and make difficult to move. There is a chance that mobs will waste their move cards on worthless positioning.

    8. Pass if got advantage

    AI is passing very often even having a lot of move and attack cards still in hand. If terrain attachments are in your favour (they stand on lava, next to radiation etc.) and you are not in danger of getting very high dmg attack in the beginning of the next round, hit end round. Playing another move or attack card might trigger second wave of AI activity that can be devastating.

    9. Do not count on luck if you can afford to

    Just don't waste your attacks on front of the enemies that got many blocks or can have immunity (heavy armour) unless their hand is empty or exposed. Especially against mercenaries with parries. Be patient, they will expose their backs if you allow them to make mistake. OFC sometimes you have to count on the armour or block to finish off the battle if got no healing cards in the deck. RNG can be bad so do not put your trust there then you wont have to blame it for losing.

    10. Maximize the effect

    Look for every possibility to save 1hp or deal 1 hp of dmg more. Do not heal if the points would be wasted. Remember that cleansing cards can heal so heal all characters. If you got many buffs in the deck, attack (or heal) when they are active. If got armour in the deck and not in hand try to slow down the game to get them. Avoid passing if you got plenty of attack cards and would have to discard them if AI ends round (unless you are in favourable tactical situation - see 8.)

    Good luck.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2015
    FDrybob, Jarmo, Obernoob and 4 others like this.
  5. At times I wish CoC worked like this:

    You get your randomly generated character. A crap character.
    After every level you can regear the character with loot you have found. (You still get the loot for the normal game too)

    I know this wouldn't be practical, as most of the characters appear to have decks that cannot be explained away with items. *CoughQuickJonCough* But it would remove that problem of instant-death map generation if I actually had a chance to fix some the flaws with the preset characters with items. Plus I may even feel excited when I get an epic that I already have umpteen of.
    FDrybob, billiska and Magic Elves like this.
  6. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    That sounds like a really fun mode! And probably one requiring a lot of new code ;)
    FDrybob, billiska, seth arue and 2 others like this.
  7. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    Similar to the nudie run hack I hope we see someday, but no nudie run should start with the first level of CoC.
  8. If only we lived in a world where we could shake a wand a magic some code in.
    FDrybob, Flaxative and Sir Veza like this.
  9. Happenstance

    Happenstance Thaumaturge

    Okay, just won caverns again, that's 3 completions from 8 attempts at node 10. Wins vs Elder Mind, Oak King and Greenfang, losses vs Blitzy x2, Xanathacus, Troll King and Oak King. I'm at the point now where caverns isn't stressful at all, it's more like an acknowledgement that it throws up practically unwinnable levels about 10-15% of the time.

    The more you get used to how each of the characters plays, the easier it gets, e.g. the jelly warrior looks useless on the surface, and on a lot of maps he can be, but on a map with an outside path, he can block hard hitting and fast moving melee mobs at the rear of the party with his jumps and blocks, while you hustle your mages away. It'd be great to have a listing for each characters' deck on the wiki at some point, so you could develop a strategy based on what you expect to draw.

    Small maps and maps without cover are much more dangerous than larger maps with cover.

    Sometimes, you just draw bad mobs. At node 1 I've faced a group made up of kobold spearmen, mercenaries and blinking wisps, and I've faced another group of trolls, storges and bombardiers.

    So, there are bad characters, bad maps and bad mobs. If you draw two of these things together, it makes a later node very difficult. Three is most likely a loss.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
    FDrybob, Rebel7284 and Christofff like this.
  10. Bykuzplastiku

    Bykuzplastiku Orc Soldier

    I have played another 100-200 attempts or so and must say that on the longer run the mode is really, really annoying.

    At current state of my experience i strongly NOT recommend it to CH players. The randomness is way to high. The reasons are the same as those Happenstance mentioned above. There are too many battles that are to easy or impossible to complete. So most of the battles are boring or frustrating. It is hard to find battles that are challenging. Most of the cases one will play it easy till battle 5-8 and the run would end on the medium to small all-open map with large group of shooting enemies... while your team will be without enough nimbus and smoke to make any difference. Often having very poorly designed decks, low hp wizard elves or characters with small number of attack cards.

    If you have not completed all the quests i would strongly recommend to spend time on solving them first. They are much more playable and except few highend 1hp quests they are more strategy and tactics based then luck based.

    Overall CoC is a good idea but poor design :p
  11. Predaking

    Predaking Orc Soldier

    Agree. Either the map is really easy or its impossible to beat.
  12. Rebel7284

    Rebel7284 Ogre

    It's certainly difficult, that's for sure. I still haven't beat the whole thing after >25 starts. I like the challenge though. The boosted rewards certainly help it be more worthwhile and the random monsters are appealing. It would be nice if the decks were better balanced against each other, but it's fine regardless.

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