Allowing More PvP Per Day - A Different Look

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by kardnel, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    In the last thread I made on a similar subject I also presented the idea of not forcing the reset after 18 hours but instead giving the player the option to if they want to. This would allow people to obtain the purple chest over a few days if they want. Of course, the drawback to that is they effectively lose out on the super easy and valuable first win of the day. So yeah, basically I agree that some new system would be better - but again limiting the amount a person can play is bad! I just completed my 20 games and now I'm going to go try out the beta for one of your competitor's games instead of likely continuing to play your game...
  2. Andrew Talbot

    Andrew Talbot Mushroom Warrior

    You're not limited, you're just unsatisfied with the choices that you do have and want more of a particular style of grinding you favor.
    Mentioning another competitor may not be against the rules, but it's in poor taste to word it how you did because you are coming off as spoiled/entitled.
    hatchhermit likes this.
  3. What's more selfish? Allowing players to obtain loot in manners that tailor to a greater number of the population? Or only allowing players to obtain loot in the manner that you, yourself, think is appropriate by restricting them? The only person coming off spoiled or entitled is you. You believe that players should not have the ability to grind loot in SP AND MP in near-equivalent fashions.
  4. hatchhermit

    hatchhermit Hydra

    You're right, they aren't equivalent. SP gets more quantity of items, MP gets better quality items. What the OP is asking for is for MP to get more quantity of better quality items. It's combining the best of both worlds. So why should a MP player get that while a SP doesn't have a guarantee of anything over uncommon? I've gone 3 or 4 adventures never getting anything greater than an uncommon. Depending on length of adventure that's about 9 to 15 chests. And before anyone says 'go play MP', I don't want to, just like the OP doesn't want to play SP.
  5. Megadestructo

    Megadestructo Shark Card

    Currently the number of players who a change might affect is a very small percentage of overall players (both in MP and SP). An overhaul of how the system works would require a decent amount of time that is, currently, better spent on further improvements and fixes to the game.

    I'm definitely not saying it's off the table, but I'd consider it a low priority at the moment.

    I'm *also* not saying it's a bad idea, FYI. :) We've just got to focus on other things at the moment.
  6. I think most of us hardcore players are just glad you guys are doing such a good job, and actually read the forums and consider input and questions. Means a lot to know that there is an attentive and intelligent dev team.
    hatchhermit likes this.
  7. Andrew Talbot

    Andrew Talbot Mushroom Warrior

    Given that I've noticed you liking quit a few of Kardnel's less popular posts, I realize that you agree with much he has to say. Still, it's pretty obvious if you've read anything I've posted the last week or so that I am a proponent of equal treasure opportunities for both SP and MP. Feel free to go back and check if you don't believe I've made them, I can counter-quote as needed if you would like to find more quotes from me stating as you feel.

    As for the greater population, well tbh you haven't read the few threads with either opinions or polls comparing the two. While there is a large overbleed, there's more people playing and wanting to play SP.

    Furthermore, like Kardnel, you should really stop pretending that you're restricted by just earning brown chests for further wins. You want to exclusively play MP and earn chests, fine. The system already supports that.
    The example(s) for the word 'entitlement' in this thread, reminds me of the argument that Club Membership (claimed in another thread) is restricting to players because it doesn't give them the item shown automatically. Pretty clear-cut where the lines are getting drawn, to me at least.
    hatchhermit likes this.
  8. Megadestructo

    Megadestructo Shark Card

    Hey guys, let's not throw around the "e" word, shall we? Never helps a conversation.
  9. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    Another guy pointed out the odds of getting various quality items from regular chests.

    Common: 70%
    Uncommon: 20.8%
    Rare: 7.5%
    Epic: 1.5%
    Legendary: 0.2%

    I am assuming that a person can do 5 modules in an hour pretty easily with the right build. For simplicity's sake let's say they are all 3 map missions. The first 2 maps give 2 items and the last one gives 4 items. So for each module you earn 6 items. Since you are doing 5 an hours that means you get 30 items per hour. Assuming the PvP ladder takes 5 hours to complete that means a person could get 150 items in the same amount of time. Thus, the breakdown is a person gets about 2 epics, 11 rares and a bit worse than every third day would get a legendary item.

    For comparison, a PvP player in that time gets 15 normal chests for 30 items. He also gets 4 gold chests with a guaranteed rare or better. And he gets one epic chest with an epic or better. The purple/gold chests also add 15 more normal items to the count for a total of 45. Round that up to 50 for simplicity's sake and you can say that from the normal class of items a PvP player gets 1/3rd the items from normal chests that the PvE player gets. So he would then get about .66 epic, 4 rares, and every 9th day would get a legendary item. And then on top of that you get the guaranteed 4 rares and 1 epic. So the PvP player's total looks to be something like 1.66 epic, 8 rares and is getting less legendary items.

    This is all obviously not exactly right but it is within some reasonable ballpark (assuming those brown chest numbers are correct). Why is it off a bit? First off, obviously legendary items pop from purple chests more often and epics from gold etc. Overall I think it is close - probably designed that way. But that is exactly the point I was originally trying to make... why take away a person's choice in what he likes to play?

    TLDR: If you look at the math PvP and PvE players get within reason a similar number of items. Thus, your original statement doesn't live up to scrutiny.

    By the way I really think I am being generous with the PvE numbers in a lot of ways. Reality is that I get through all of the level 17 and 16 missions every day and it takes just over an hour. So if you're going to argue that my numbers for legendary items from purple chests/etc are off... well please realize I was being quite conservative in the first place, whereas beating PvP reliably in less than 5 hours is not really realistic.
  10. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    And BTW I appreciate that you're replying to my threads guys from BM. I hope I am offering some constructive, well thought out ideas. And indeed you do have bigger fish to fry than letting me play more per day... nerf those draw decks already! :p
    Megadestructo likes this.
  11. hatchhermit

    hatchhermit Hydra

    Ok. You caught me. I did no math and didn't follow other people's math. I was going off of what people have been saying that in SP you can get more items than in MP, which is true and you pointed that out. And based off my experience lately of not getting anything rare or above with any regularity I assumed the quality of the items a person who does MP would be greater. Anecdotal at best and I proved the old adage of assuming to be correct. Ok, so in the quantity sense SP has an advantage and a SP will get some gold out of the extras. Mea culpa.

    That said, assuming the math is correct, it is showing that the rarity distribution is relatively equal. Your suggestion would swing the rarity distribution totally in favor of people with your playing style. And I think even that would take into account buying a rare or epic from the shop with the extra gold from selling duplicate items for a SP player. Do you see how that would seem to cater to people of a specific play style as opposed to benefiting the majority of the player base? I think that is the issue I have with your suggestion.
    Pengw1n likes this.
  12. Andrew Talbot

    Andrew Talbot Mushroom Warrior

    Just as a note, the numbers you're quoting are commonly repeated guesstimates from one poster (Mutak) in this topic on rarity. Using the data actually listed and not just the guesses (more data is always helpful and will be even more accurate) and the percentages are more at odds/much much lower (like 0.07% if we include the one Legendary later in the thread with the 1409 prior).
    Closer to 1% on the Uncommon chest (won't be seen btw unless you cut off campaigns since you get 1 per day per module) and less than that for the normal ones (none listed for over 1400 items). Comparatively the data he has shows the Epic chest at 27% chance of a Legendary...

    The Epic chest, has a much better Legendary chance but (imo) more importantly are guaranteed to have two epics or better. Percentage-wise the numbers go in the favor of the MP chests when you have chest numbers with moderate-high count differences. Last chest on campaigns is guaranteed an uncommon or better btw.

    So the numbers are skewed pretty heavily from public opinion, but then they are skewed both ways really since SP maps can be done much quicker than 10 mins. Likewise, MP is also very much up to chance at times, a staller can easily push the time limit upwards past 15 mins, but when I was playing MP I probably averaged about 6-8 minute matches. Granted, that was only in the 1100 ish range, but just something to note. If you happen to encounter the opposite of a staller (opponent quits first round) then you have matches under two minutes easily...

    TL;DR MP Chests, not including gold or Epic, already have an over (with current data linked in the above thread) ten times likelier chance to pop Legendary items, four times the Epic chance, and over four times the Rare chance compared to the normal chests farmed if that's your goal. Since you're not likely to be getting that many times the SP games vs. MP, the only benefit of SP over MP in this instance is that you can roughly target the level of gear that you want if you're willing to put in much more effort to get it...

    Edit: I just realized the data wasn't clear on just what the MP chests are after the 20 wins, are they standard browns or Uncommon browns? Anyone?
  13. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    Oh oops I just caught a big mistake in my math, too.

    The first 2 maps give 2 items and the last one gives 4 items. So for each module you earn 6 items.

    That should say 8 items... so it is pretty clear you're getting more items from SP than MP.

    I don't understand how these two sentences fit together. If you can earn the same number of good items from MP as SP then how is it *unequal* that the PvPer gets to play as much?

    There are about 40 modules level 5 and above (the range that is worth grinding for items IMO). If we keep the same assumptions this means that this will keep a single player person busy for 8 hours. Seems kind of odd making the assumption too that SP guys won't play those lower level maps. After all, another consequence of getting items from PvP is that you do end up with those super low level, completely useless items. You don't have a choice but to include them in your grind.

    If you concede that SP is a bit more efficient for items as well - well then basically SP guys have double the number of items to earn per day compared to MP folks. There is nothing equal about that. Edit: and remember, a lot of modules have more than 2 maps...

    Also, if you add all of this up, then a person can basically play 13 hours a day if they were so inclined. Thus, any argument that the developers ought to slow down the most hardcore people from gaining items too quickly doesn't really add up since they already can.
  14. Forduc

    Forduc Orc Soldier

    It seems it's in fact two guaranteed uncommons at the end of the adventure. And 3rd one if you count the club reward.

    8 in fact, so end result comes out quite different. ->40 items per hour -> 200 items in 5 hours -> 4 times as much as in PvP

    But well, it isn't all that fruitfull, getting 2 rare chests is nobrainer, especially with club membership. Even 3rd and 4th might be good idea depending how much you prefer PvP over SP. Epic chest is more for PvPrs than loot grinders. Which is fine, don't want to mix em, as explained at previous thread.
  15. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    Despite there being a big imbalance here I am not even asking for a balance fix for this. I just want to be able to play more...!
  16. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    Considering they're working on tournaments I'd say you just need to relax a bit. Pretty sure that'll change the mp scene quite a bit when we find out what they're up to.
  17. Forduc

    Forduc Orc Soldier

    Is there actually anything preventing that? As others have said earlier, you still get chests after 20 wins from PvP.

    Sure there isn't any guaranteed chest in sight, but it isn't preventing playing either. Adding another epic chest to ~40 wins would probably do more harm than good. Some might view it as their daily goal, which has it's obvious downside in the long run for developers.
  18. hatchhermit

    hatchhermit Hydra

    I didn't say it was currently unequal, I said your suggestion would make it unequal. But, if your math is initially wrong then obviously it isn't currently as equal anymore. I was going off of your math.

    As far as I know you can still keep playing past 20 wins, and if that's all you want then I don't understand why we're talking about loot. Anyway, as a SP player, the amount of loot you have doesn't effect me so I'll bow out of this discussion. I'm actually confused as to why I got involved in the first place. I'd probably have to reread the thread to remember. :D
  19. He just wants to be rewarded more commensurate with his time investment, in a medium that he enjoys (MP). I feel the same way. There is no cap on SP farming really, but MP has an arbitrary cap that makes some sense, but doesn't necessarily need to exist.
  20. Andrew Talbot

    Andrew Talbot Mushroom Warrior

    Do you have a quote for that? Because the thread I quoted has it at one Uncommon.

    If you grab the chest at the end of the adventure it will lock the module to boot, so keep in mind the number is limited in the end there.

    Anyway, If we counted the club reward in this straight comparison it heavily skews the item quality even more in favor of MP giving more worthwhile items since the minimum guaranteed item rarity is used there. Since I don't feel Membership technically should be counted for this, even if it supports my position I'm not taking it into account and just using base numbers.

    TL DR; You may get four times the items in SP, but the stats aren't lying when they give better than four times the odds for Epic/Rares for MP and ten times the chance for Legendaries. Your mileage may vary slightly but in a straight comparison the quality of items is better from MP.

    No, it's been confirmed from multiple people that you still can play MP and receive chests after 20 wins. He wants more Gold and Purple chests because he feels MP lags in treasure quality behind SP, even though the stats don't agree with his view. SP merely generates more (garbage) items.

    The cap only exists in your respective minds. You have better quality item farming with MP according to accumulated data. If you ever want to trade that for more garbage and fewer Legendaries in return by all means I'll sign the petition if you feel MP/SP treasure returns should be switched. XD

    P.S. Of course I'm joking there. I'd rather SP treasure be improved to be equal to MP than MP nerfed.

Share This Page