Focused Crushing is really great, but it severely limits the deckbuilding options. Building a good warrior with it is a challenge! As long as I like the innovative decks, the challenge is accepted First of all, I strongly recommend you to look at the Vitos' build here: http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/the-daily-deal.6286/page-16 The build is very very good. It has 18 attacks (half Lunging Bashes) and combines a very high damage rating with a lot of various tech. I have to mention Quinn's Buckler as an example of my mistake: I don't like the shields with Dodges, but in this build we just cannot swap some attacks with Dodges. I could buy the Quinn's Buckler, but skipped it for my own stupidity. My build is similar, but has some important differences. First of all, I don't have even a single The Lunginator, and getting two will take too much time. I have two Shieldrippers though, and always wanted to use them with Crusher. The Shieldripper is somewhat blunt compared to Lunginator (it doesn't have that much useful tech), and, most importantly, I am losing three Lunging Bashes. To compensate for that, I've used armor and boots with the Bashes, which raised my total attack number to 20. On the other hand, using the Shieldripper allowed me to play without Bellowing Helm, since I guess 8 Unnerving Strikes are enough to defeat opponent's blocks. Mad Dog - lvl 18 Dwarf warrior The Lunginator Mighty Hack (13), 2 * Unnerving Strike(8), 3* Lunging Bash (4) = 41 Shieldripper 6 * Unnerving Strike(8) = 48 Porior's Nimble Mace 3 * Lunging Bash (4), 3* Able Bludgeon (5) = 27 Ozone Plates Grounding Plates, Chain Harness, Lunging Bash (4) Leomunk's Kickin' Boots 2 * Energizing Move, Lunging Bash (4) Captain Cedric's Helm Reliable Mail, 2 * Officer's Harness Eeygonnic's Shield Surging Shield Block, 2* Wounded Block Raging Battler 2 * Blind Rage, Reliable Mail. Focused Crushing 3 * Crusher Attacks (20): -------------- 1* Mighty Hack 8* Unnerving Strike 8* Lunging Bash 3* Able Bludgeon Traits (5): ------------- 2* Blind Rage 3* Crusher Armor (6): ----------- 1* Grounding Plates 1* Chain Harness 2* Reliable Mail 2* Officer's Harness Blocks (3): ----------- 1* Surging Shield Block 2* Wounded Block Move/Utitity (2) ----------------- 2* Energizing Move So my Mad Dog has 5 traits and 20 attacks. His chance of drawing two attacks per turn = 20/31*19/30 = 0.409. Chance of drawing zero attacks = 11/31*10/30 = 0.118. Average damage per attack = 6.2. Average expected number of attacks per turn (AvAT) = 2*0.409+(1-0.409-0.118) = 1.291. Average expected damage per turn (AvDT) = 6.2 * AvAT = 8.004 without any buffs. With MF we have 11.877 AvDT, and with both MF and Crusher ~14.4 AvDT. In other words, Mad Dog will reliably kill average dwarven warrior with 3 turns of drawing. If you keep two strong attacks in your hand at end of turn, you can hope to kill most characters on the next turn. I did my best to provide him enough movement, and I guess he isn't a sprinter anyway, but he can reach the victory area in time. He has 8 Lunging Bashes (that can safely be used to move having 20 attacks) + 2 Energizing Moves + Surging Shield Block. With Energizing Move he can move for 4 with the regular move and then for 4 more, which is quite far for a dwarf. Mad Dog obviously doesn't have good defenses - that's why he's called Mad Dog, after all He thinks that "the best defense is the good offense". He isn't totally defenseless though, and Grounding Plates may become a nice surprise to the enemy wizards. I don't have a chance to test Mad Dog now, since I lack some key items, especially The Lunginator, Raging Battler and Ozone Plates. But according to the statistics he should perform very well versus the enemy warriors. The standard warrior tactics is "build up a good hand, then engage in melee", and Mad Dog demonstrates that a "good hand" (usually having a good block or armor and 1-2 good attacks) isn't that good against him! He will discard the opponent's blocks and deal enough damage to pass through armor. All his items I don't have yet are moved to my top priority list. All ideas and suggestions are welcome!
Now, if you did play 2X The Lunginator, along with a 3+ bashing weapon, you really, really don't need to use Crusher, since the only difference is it buffs Unnerving Strike and your cheapest attack, Able Bludgeon. On the other hand, you have 11-12 Lunging Bash running around, all of which are buffed by a modest Bruiser, which you can get from Novice Bruising for no tokens at all instead of a Major. +2 damage isn't something to sneeze at, but considering in this build that you can get it for free, it doesn't make a lot of sense to worry about getting a legendary with Crusher. However, if you have the ability to play ShieldRipper and you are certain you have the mobility to compensate (your dwarf build is pretty good), it makes some sense to use Perfect Crushing since now you have twice as many buffable attacks (Bashes + Unnerving + Bludgeons), plus more consistency, if you can afford the major token, and if you value that extra damage. For this specific build, where you go out of the way to pick items to make it work, Focused Crushing is OK. I would still consider switching it out and using a proper shield. Personally, I would avoid sticking a ShieldRipper on a dwarf warrior, especially with blind rage, except for a suitable constructed league like Chess Madness. Unless you want to bring The Pain. Anyways... the only thing Crusher is good for are toy builds and Aristocat. IMO it only holds you back in ranked. Bash Warrior is viable, but Crusher is a noob trap.
I know that at some point Bruiser becomes better, but I don't think the Vitos' setup (two Lunginators + Porior's Nimble Mace) is crossed that point. There are 9 bashes, 7 non-bashing attacks and 2 non-crushing ones. Bruiser will pump half of your attacks, Crusher will pump 88.89% of your attacks, and you will have 3 copies of it. That's worth a yellow token IMHO. The build becomes more stable, and you can rely on dealing a lot of damage. I would have almost twice buffable attacks with two Lunginators as well: 50% versus 88.89%. What do you mean by "if you value that extra damage"? How can I not value it? I wonder, which shield do you consider so good that it could replace Focused Crushing here? And why? If you mean dealing a lot of damage, then yes, I want right that. Why shouldn't I? Bash warrior is viable? With which weapons? I was trying to make the bash warrior for months, and failed. Bashes are underpowered, and no good warrior is possible without the power. Basher's Delight deals 34 damage total for , while Shieldripper deals 48, and Lunginator deals 41 for . Hammer Of Bashing maybe? Looks like Crusher is viable (as you admit that my build is viable), and Bruiser is a "noob trap". Jade, your opinion is always important to me, but it would be great if you'd back up your statements with some arguments.
Congratulations, you made a warrior that self-buffs melee by 4 damage more often than- every other warrior out there. Big deal! I'd rather take a dwarf warrior with Impaler and Blind Rage, that's +3 for every penetrating attack. Or Bruiser + Blind Rage for +4 damage. If you take an average warrior and start forcing them to use Focused Crushing, you are imposing a huge deckbuilding limitation where they only deal damage and prevent them from using some of the better attacks like Dancing/Nimble/Vicious not to mention Impaling Stab. All of these cards are crucial to a warrior, especially a dwarf. That is why Crusher is a "noob trap"- I see people using Trained Crushing and Novice Crushing every so often and I take the time to explain why those skills are bad. Namely, because they only have 1 trait, but also because you are paying for a damage boost, of all things. What Advanced Crushing and Focused Crushing do is take your Crusher and bring it up to par with Novice/Focused skills and Savvy Attacker. The problem is, the cost per Crusher trait is DOUBLE that of any other skill. Skills that, I might add, already buff damage. Crusher is not anything new in that regard. I mean, do you see anyone running Focused Impaling/Slicing/Bruising? No. Does it add some major consistency? Yes. But for a warrior where the damage boost is so minor, why would you pay for a skill when you can get consistency and more damage by spending the tokens on other items? It doesn't make sense. As for your build using ShieldRipper, it has only 8 Bashes and then 11 (!) crushing attacks. Two lunginators would bring it up to 9-11 bashes, plus 4-7 crushing attacks, depending on your boots/armor/etc. I tried to make it as clear as possible, when you are using that many crushing attacks it can make a difference; however when you 50% or more bashes Crusher starts to lose serious value. I was talking Vibrant Pain, Ector. And the damage there is so low I question why I would use something like Shieldripper to begin with. It's just a bit too restrictive. What would I spend my newfound major token on? Could be anything. Defender's Block, Surging Shield, Parry, Dodges, another Lunginator.... anything really. Damage is only relevant when you can throw your guy at your opponent's guy and live long enough to kill them. And blocks help you live longer. And PS: Hammer of Bashing has to be the -worst- -item- -ever-.
19 attacks out of 20 can be pumped by 4 damage each. No big deal? Really? I've already asked you to provide at least one example of that Bruiser's weapons. Or that Impaler's weapons. Actually, Impaler adds just +1 damage, and while you can play Novice Impaling for free, it has only two copies and adds a weak attack. And if you can afford a token, then Savvy Attacker will be better. So your argument is "no dwarf warrior can exist without Dancing/Nimble/Vicious/Impaling Stab? Looks like you are "imposing a huge deckbuilding limitation" yourself Remember, there are no good cards, there are only good decks. I know that all these cards are used in many good decks, but that doesn't mean that a good deck cannot exist without them. Yes, they are bad because they have only 1 trait. If they had two, they would be good. I cannot understand why do you insist that damage boost isn't worth to pay for. No, it's new, since it works for a wide range of attacks, including some powerful and techy attacks like Unnerving Strike. If you could show me a weapon with 6 Impaling Strikes and Impaler would add +2 damage, then it would be equal to Shieldripper + Crusher (or even better). If you could show me a weapon with 6 good chops and Slicer would add +2 damage, then it would be equal too. Crusher costs twice more because it DOES twice more and includes twice more attacks. If we had a trait to add +2 to all slashing attacks, it would cost the same. You seem to miss the crossing point where the damage boost isn't minor anymore, and the attack selection enables some really powerful weapons. Impaler, Slicer and Bruiser don't allow you to build a good specialized warrior with the really high damage output, while Crusher does. Yes, I've got your argument, I just don't agree with it. If you use Novice Crushing, then you save the token, but you have 2 copies of your trait instead of 3, and the trait buffs just half of your attacks instead of almost all. Is it no difference? Best items cost more, and that's the nature of the game. After all, the difference between The Hackmaster and The Strongarm is just one card, so let's proclaim The Hackmaster a waste of tokens, right? Sorry, didn't understand this at all. What about Vibrant Pain, and why do you consider Shieldripper's damage low? And damage buff helps you to kill faster, so you won't need to live longer Even the best block works just once, while Crusher works for 3 turns, and the total damage added is going to be much higher (on average) than the average damage prevented by the block.
It's 2 damage over a other warriors, which is great, but you are forced to use only bashes, which are weaker than average, and vanilla attacks. This is besides the point. By not imposing a heavy cost in order to use them the other skills allow you to use whatever weapons you want. You can pick whichever one you want based on if you want Parry, Team Run, Frenzy Aura, or other powerful options. Using novice versions may force you to use a weak attack but you get to upgrade a different slot. With Crusher the customization is gone in favor for damage, which is a preference choice. The point was that in order to use Crusher effectively you lose the option of relying on weapon slots for movement. For instance, your build relies on Energizing Move for movement. In doing so you lose the spot and token required for Team Run, which you had to cut out completely due to Focused Crushing. This may or may not be enough for you but in my experience with playing dwarves you need a lot more than a pair of Energizing Moves. Before you mention Lunging Bash, no, adding a bunch of Shuffles does not shore up movement weaknesses. They don't allow you to build a specialized warrior but they don't force you to either. The added damage comes at the cost of variety. And if you can't reach the target a damage buff won't help you kill at all. At the end of the day I think the biggest issue everyone has with Crusher is that it limits your movement options both through narrowing movement or ranged attacks and the upgraded token cost. It is up to each individual to decide which they find more important.
Who in their right mind would buff Sundering + Dancing Cuts, plus Hacks for the same cost as Crusher, not to mention Chops? Would you say the same thing about Piercing attacks? Yes, the Hackmaster is a waste of tokens. The Strongarm does absurd damage without costing anything; not only does it make a great case compared to all items, comparing it to the Hackmaster is no contest.
You've meant crushing attacks, not just bashes, didn't you? Crusher is far stronger than Bruiser. And they aren't "weaker than average" - MadDog's average damage per attack is 6.2, and it would be even higher if I wouldn't add two extra Lunging Bashes to increase the total damage per turn. Have you read my calculations at all? No, it isn't "just a preference choice". Let's compare Focused Crusher with the strongest tokenless alternative, Novice Bruising, and calculate the total average damage done per 13 game turns (needed to cycle through the entire deck). As long as my character has 1.291 attacks per turn on average, the total damage will be 1.291 * (6.2 * 13 + 2*4 for Blind Rages + 1.9*9 for the Crushers) = 136.4587 (let's assume that the buffs don't appear while the same buffs are working for the simplicity). Novice Bruising adds an extra attack, so I had to recalculate all the math. The damage will be 1.3125*(6.286 * 13 + 2*4 for Blind Rages + 0.762*6 for Bruisers) = 123.7556. The difference is 12.70 damage for the whole deck. Now please show me an example of better usage of a yellow token No armor would absorb 12.70 more damage on average than Xander's Mail. No shield would block 12.70 more damage on average than Eeygonnic's. What does all these calculations mean? It means that Focused Crushing is fantastic in the right deck. Yes, it will greatly reduce your choice of attacks, but I prefer to call that "a price of specialization". It's always better to be very good in a single skill than to be just mediocre in many skills, especially at war. I have 8 Lunging Bashes that can be used to move. I really doubt that most players use more weapon slots for movement Even without the Lunging Bashes, why having *two* Team Runs in a deck solves the movement problems and having *the same two* Energizing Moves don't? Team Run is a one-shot card after all, and when I get my Energizing Move, I will move 4 squares per turn until I decide to discard it. If I would need to move far, I can make two 4 moves in one turn to chase a wizard, for instance! Your Team Run is awesome, no doubts, but it moves your warrior just 3 squares. So who's having "the movement weaknesses", eh? As I've said, the specialization is great. As I've demonstrated above, the movement problems aren't that serious here, and the added damage is well worth the yellow token.
It was just an example of the attack broadness. The number of crushing attacks is approximately the same as the number of slashing or piercing. No, the Hackmaster is a very good weapon. It adds 19 damage total for , which is almost the same as 12.70 damage total for . --------------------------------- Now, please, can we stop discussing whether Focused Crushing is good and start discussing the builds? I'd like to see the other builds with it, especially better than mine.
I don't understand your math. Are you saying that Focused Crushing gets your build ~12 more damage per turn or per deck? Also, I'm not discussing whether Focused Crushing is good. I'm discussing that Focused Crushing is bad, even in the right build.
Per deck, of course. +12 damage per turn is impossible. Then please provide at least a single solid argument. I've provided a lot.
Bashes are absolutely weaker than average. Specialized bashes like Lunging Bash in particular are even worse. I don't need to calculate to know that a build with bashes is going to have weaker attacks than a build without taking skills into account. You are putting the token into armor which a lot of warriors don't even bother with. Put it towards weapons and your damage goes up. Don't need to use crushing skills anymore? You get a ton of movement options that open up when you aren't limited to crushing attacks. You do less damage and you get more variety. If we are comparing damage to damage prevention Crusher may win, but there is value in increased movement that can't be measured. You only need 4 Dancing Cuts to do the same job and you use half the attacks. Team Run moves you 4. Even then, Two Team Runs isn't enough. I add step attacks or Dodges in the weapon slots to dwarf builds. Focused Crushing doesn't let you do that. No, they are even more serious with dwarves. All you can do is Walk and Shuffle twice towards an enemy when you don't have Energizing Move. Then what's left in your hand? I would love to discuss a competitive build. Unfortunately, none of us have one and as far as I know none exist. Personally, I wouldn't take your build or even Vitos' into multiplayer because of the movement issues. The one thing I would change about your build for sure is move the heavy armor token to weapons.
Well I can't trust your math Ector. I'm pretty sure that 20 - 2 = 18, not 19. Here's a question for you. What is the better damage value for the cost- Infused Greatclub or The Bludgeonator? Muddle that one over for a while. Solid argument? You have provided no such thing. As for me, if you insist that I haven't provided any arguments then I insist that I have only provided discussion. Welp, it's getting late and I don't have the time or patience for the math. But if you like, try this: ShieldRipper/Lunginator/Porior's Mace + Focused Crushing VS ShieldRipper/Lunginator/Lunginator + Novice Bruising. The result should be a nominal damage increase in favor of Crusher. Porior's VS Lunginator should be 14 damage difference on the surface; but taking the traits into account... Then take a similar case but swap Shieldripper for another Lunginator, then Basher's Delight. You'll see that the more bashes means Crusher makes less of a difference. About what was said above, a crusher warrior is probably deprived of every Step 2 attack in the game, and every good warrior needs movement from their weapons. You get less movement each turn with only Lunging Bashes to rely on. Adding two Energizing Move are just drops in the bucket, once you draw them you get one shot of extra distance for each Walk, each turn, and you can always burn the EM for another move. But turn by turn, you aren't getting the Step 2's that usually fill 6-10 or more of a warrior's slots. Overcoming that is a key part of a bashing build. Even if you make your basher an elf, it only help with initial movement. Once you get to the battle, you still have to make those jumps towards your opponents.
Oh crap! Sorry about that, I've somewhy thought that Almighty Hack deals 21 damage. But my other math is correct. Calculate it yourself if you don't trust me If depends on whether you really need the yellow token or not and for what do you need it. The Bludgeonator deals 5 damage more, and I believe that upgrading some other item may be worth downgrading it to the Greatclub. But sometimes you simply don't know what to upgrade, and then going with Bludgeonator may be a good choice. Really? I've even calculated the damage for you. You are right here: two Lunginators + Novice Bruising are better than Porior's Mace + Focused Crushing. 14 more damage is better than 12.70, and Bruiser adds the same increase in both cases. Plus, the increased number of Unnerving Strikes is good. Plus, the lesser vulnerability to Purges is also good. Sad to admit that, but c'est la vie. Does that mean that FC is crap? Surely not. Being a second best option is far from being crap. Not everybody has two Lunginators (I have none for now), and when I will get one, I will be able to play my warrior. Plus, who knows which crushing weapons may appear in the future? Yes, but I don't like to lower the number of Unnerving Strikes. They are good, you know. I really cannot understand the reason of having that much movement. Do you chase the enemy across the whole map every turn?
Lunging Bash deals 4 damage. How can you advocate for Dancing Cuts dealing the same 4 damage and discount the Bashes? Really? What if you won't draw your Dancing Cut when you will need it? I simply cannot consider 4 Dancing Cut automatically better than 8 Lunging Bashes, considering the added damage bonus from Crusher and the bashing effect. Oh crap... You're right, I should start playing MP at last. I'm starting to mess Team Run with Violent Spin, that's very bad Fair enough, though I need to test the build first to discover how much movement is actually needed. I am going to build a Crusher Elf too, since I don't have Raging Battler anyway, and probably that one will move faster. As long as I have 20 attacks, even if I spend all my bashes to move, I will have 12 left Which weapon would you take for ?
If they are a non-dwarf running away from you or using slide spells yes. Easy, it takes 2 Lunging Bashes to go the same distance as a single Dancing Cut. I will not draw Dancing Cut as often but I don't need to draw 2 in the same turn either. I was talking about turn to turn but isn't 12 below your magic number of attacks? A Bolg weapon or Eixocl's Hammer if you want better movement. Infused Greatclub if you want damage.
If they're not wizards, I don't need to chase them - keeping victory area would be enough. If they're wizards... how many non-dwarf wizards are played nowadays? Anyway, no character can be good in everything. Mad Dog doesn't lack movement entirely; and he can move very fast when he gets Energizing Move. He can just hide behind a cover waiting for it and threatening the victory area. The difference between him and the average warrior is: once he will catch the wizard, the wizard is going to be dead on that turn. Mad Dog wouldn't need to chase the wizard for several turns, as your average warrior has, and that's why he doesn't need that much movement. So you value them only as movement, while they should be universal. When you need to move far, one Dancing Cut is equal to two Lunging Bashes, right. When you need to move just one square, one Lunging Bash is enough. And when you need to kill, two Lunging Bashes deal much more damage, especially with Crusher. You don't always need to move 2 squares. Sometimes you don't need to move at all, you need just to kill - but you get a Dancing Cut instead of a strong attack. Sometimes you need to move one square, but you have no Dancing Cuts. Having a lot of Lunging Bashes is more consistent and much more universal. It was a joke, right? There was even a smile there. I've considered all these options. Eixocl's Hammer is inappropriate to this build, as it deals too little damage (even less than Porior's Nimble Mace), and the build is all about damage. Infused Greatclub is inappropriate as well, since Mad Dog still needs to move somehow, and as you've stated, he isn't a very good runner. I have a Bolg's Big Iron Plate, though, and it looks a decent option, but I still prefer my current setup, since Porior's Mace + extra Lunging Bash deal more damage with the buffs. But two extra blocks/moves are definitely useful here, especially versus the wizards. Plus, I don't have Ozone Plates yet, but I do have Xander's Mail -------------------------------------------------------- Guys, does anybody besides Jade and peonprop has something to say? I've thought the theme would be interesting to many players, not just ones that don't believe in Focused Crushing.
I have two news: the good and the bad, as usual The bad news: I've found a mistake in my calculations. I've thought that Novice Bruising has Strong Bludgeon instead of Bludgeon. The correct damage total for Novice Bruising will be 121.65, and Focused Crushing build is 14.81 damage per deck ahead, not 12.70. The good news: my Focused Crushing build deals approximately the same damage as 2 Lunginators + Shieldripper
I'm a new player and I'm not proclaiming my knowledge over anything. It's just that I feel like what peonprop was trying to say is that Dancing Cut works in both situations where you need to Move 2 and when you need to Move 1, whereas Lunging Bash only works in the situation where you need to Move 1. Therefore when you do need to Move 2, you can't do anything. As for Lunging Bashes, I'm not actually sure if the chance to draw 2 Lunging Bashes is less than the chance to draw 1 Dancing Cut, so maybe someone could work that out... Yeah...
