After all the balance changes focusing on MP, I finally had some time to test out SP with the new cards. The lower levels didn't really get impacted much, but at higher levels I find that multiple strategies no longer work at all and since they weren't replaced with anything else it leaves you relying on fewer and fewer viable builds. In particular I feel that high level wizards really suffered. - Encumber/lava builds now struggle to do much/any damage (this is the hardest loss for SP) - Punishing Bolt is a lot harder to use given it's short range (this along with encumber changes makes it a lot harder for wizards to battle the later bosses) - Firestorm got hit (this was useful on some of the lvl 17/18 adventures if you wanted to use wizards and clear out some annoying levels) Wizards struggle to do the damage they used to, unless you warp to using damage buffing priest builds. I used to always beat the SP campaign using multiple wizards, now I would require a ton of specific epics/legendaries to attempt the party. This isn't to say that I can't beat higher levels, just that it takes a lot of retries even using my immense collection. I shudder to consider what this did to the new player experience in SP. The level 18 adventures now seem to come down to abusing the AI's inability to recognize nimbus effects, which isn't really the most positive experience either. Honestly, right now fix this one thing and than see what happens to high level SP.
Thanks for this feedback, very useful. (More feedback, either in the same vein or conflicting, would also be useful.)
That's odd, my 9x Punishing Bolt wizard post-nerf has been tearing through Troll Tyrant and Black Plume with relative ease. Volcano has been just as good for me, maybe my sample size is too small, but I don't feel that my wiz has become the weakest link on my team. I do agree with Oberon's thoughts on new players and their relatively small collections though. My wiz (and presumably Oberon's as well) uses a lot of "high end" gear, which can trivialize many things, and while the level 18 campaign's are supposed to be very hard, newer players might have a much harder time with them now.
I can see this being a huge problem, given that I always turned to Punishing Bolt for damage on wizards. Now, you have to rely on boosted lightning attacks, which are much rarer to find at effective damage levels. Well, honestly I've never beaten either the storge map or the ice dragon without abusing nimbus, and I typically beat the rest by abusing nimbus. *shrug*
Storges won't step on lava even with their resistant hide so some wall of fire will keep them at bay without any nimbus needed, as far as the dragon goes, huddle in the opening corner, and spam flash flood to keep the dragon 3 squares away. Reliable armor will handle his range attacks and then you can slowly whittle him down with punishing bolts and whatever else you want to throw at him. That said, I haven't even tried a lot of the upper levels since balance because I know my old techniques won't work and haven't had time to find new ones yet. Only know about the dragon because of the loot fairy being there.
I could be wrong on punishing bolt, but given it's reliance on a few legendaries, I don't feel that really solves the issue. Encumber is now significantly worse in SP, many high level monsters and bosses draw multiple moves each turn so I find lava is usually a waste. This used to be a prime strategy for lvl 17 adventures in particular. This was also a great strategy for new players to use, as it could be built with commons/uncommons, and it no longer works. That not only removes a lot of the design space for wizards and their terrain enchantments but also reduces their effectiveness. Prior to these changes wizards were best at doing damage to groups of enemies. Lava and firestorm in particular were designed to push damage out to as many opponents as possible. With those cards less effective, higher level adventures (with higher HP monsters) are a lot tougher for wizards to have an impact. Dungeon of the Swamp King or Lair of the Yellow Dragon are what I'm focused on. Try 2 wizard parties, and look at what it takes to make them viable on these levels. Now try them with no legendaries/and limited epics (more or less trying to mimic the new player experience).
Yea I jumped the gun on my conclusion based on how much gear my wizards can use. That being said though, I don't think many new players are using a 2+ wizard party, and wizards can provide great utility to counteract their poor damage. With the removal of some early scenario maps, I think Blue Manchu may currently undergoing efforts to streamline and make easier the campaign for new players, so it may be possible that wizards will once again become damage dealers if the maps become more conducive to them. It really is a shame about firestorm though...
I beat all the 17s (except cardstock) with a wiz/wiz/priest on my first run-through. Largely because I had no Mass Frenzy, nor very good fighter gear. I had some Firestorm and Wall Of Stone, though. The pre-nerf Punishing Bolt worked well on the test server. I haven't checked out the new version. I'm still looking for Heartripper. Or even a second Staff Of Chask.
For Black Plume, 2 high damage Warriors + Control wizard seems pretty effective at higher levels. I would not rely on wizards to deal out the damage required at higher levels stick with control. winds/gusts of war, telekinesis, wall of fire and boiling armor are all available on rare items. Did black plume pretty easily with that setup. Volcano on totem stage is recommend though which you need at least epics for. War Cry for the incredibly annoying blocks followed by Boiling armor for toughness and alb. hide tends to make the dragon easy to kill. In the past my warriors would have often been frozen in place and not able to position themselves to get adjacent to the dragon after I had stripped it's defenses. Encumber nerf helps a lot to single step your way to victory.
See, with the changes to encumber I haven't had any problems simply using moves to hop next to the dragon (he tends to get close for his own attacks anyway), so I haven't had a need to reposition them with a wiz. As long as the warriors also carry some armor destroying attacks, they have no need for a wizard. Even to get a bolt wizard to do decent damage tends to take significantly more cards than warriors and mass frenzy, and the warriors end up doing a lot more damage for a lot less effort. I'm not super excited about the changes at this point... SP balance would seem sort of critical with the upcoming tablet release.
Volcano is maybe the strongest card for SP right now, and it's only available for wizards, so I don't agree too much with all this. I do the 15,16 and 17 levels with a classic 2 wiz 1 priest with many Volcano (10), Fireball and Firestorm, and it's pretty effective. There are only 4 adventures where I need to use a warrior: Gladiatorial Arena, Finals (level 9) and the Troll Tyrant (level 18), where I use a 2 war 1 priest, and the other 2 level 18 modules, where I use a 1-1-1 team. In the last battle of the Secret of the elder mind, a Vulcano wizard is crucial if you want to finish the battle quickly. And in Black Plume Mountain, wizards may not be vital for the last battle if your warriors carry tons of Sundering Strikes, but it is very important for the previous battle, where you can finish the battle with just 1 Vulcano. Also, there are players that use Punishing Bolt against enemies that draw a lot of cards like the yellow dragon, and it's also a good strategy. What I agree with you is that I also dislike the encumber nerf. It doesn't make sense to me that snow doesn't affect the step 1 attacks, which are the most now.
So based on the feedback wizards just need Volcano or Punishing Bolt and than they work fine. Great, so now SP is more reliant on legendaries than MP. That won't cause any problems for new players...
I don't use legendaries for Volcano (don't have Wym's or Mordecai), I use 2 Staff of Blazing Sparks, 5 Magma Scepter (epics) and one Xipil Ring (rare). Besides, a good FS build previously to the changes required an equal amount or more of epics and legendaries. There are a few rares with FS which are very bad, so you really needed the epics and legendaries for a solid build. It's not as different as now with Volcano, except that now items are much easier to find with the new Randimar's and Daily Deal.
Jacques makes a good point to make an effective firestorm build previously already required a large investment of epic / legendary, so while your original premise about wizards may or may not be correct, the new player argument kinda falls flat on its face here. (with the exception of certain 1hp missions, which I do feel players (new and old) will have a lot more struggle on due to some key card changes)
Easier to find, yes. Easier to obtain, no. After I buy Heartripper I'll be watching a lot more go by much faster than before. I'm not sure how I'll react to that, but I expect it to be disheartening as all the goodies get flashed to me only to go away. And yes, they'll come back, but that doesn't reduce the disappointment of the moment. Only time will tell!
9x Punishing bolt works well on a lot of the levels that have large draws, but the wizard does require some backup now that they can't spam from range. Of course, this can come in with flash flood, which seems to have a lot of potential combined with punishing bolt or other close range spells defensively. As for lava and encumber, just encumber the enemy to 1 and WoW them back onto the square whenever they try to leave, it still works pretty well.
Well, just did a few lvl 17s advs with a new party. I don't have anything near half a collection and so far...my elf wizard has survived pretty well. Built around punishing bolts, flash flood/smoke bombs, lavas. Terrains have a ton of synergy with my priests cleanses which is smthg new. The added cycling help pull the upgraded blocks, heals, buffs and the entire team benefits. Was it easier than before ? Well, mobs don't cleanse... so its another AI exploit. Good thing is, I'm not running any nimbus !
I couldn't disagree more. Good firestorm decks weren't possible for new players until they had time to build up enough items to support the build. A good firestorm team relied on 6+ specific legendaries, with the best builds having far more. Based on the number of players I've advised and watched build these decks, I'd say it often took months, depending of course on how much time they dedicated to acquiring items. Even at this point, many of us were still looking for additional items to improve the builds, so the idea that they were easily available for new players is highly questionable. Beating the SP campaign with a wizard or two shouldn't be a stretch objective that takes months of collecting to achieve, and it most certainly wasn't prior to the "balance" changes. Even now the people on this thread getting good usage out of their Mages are relying heavily on specific rare cards; Punishing Bolt, Lava and Flash Flood. Those aren't cards a player is going to have in any great quantity when first attempting the SP campaign. The old encumber/firewall builds were a far better bridge for new players. These were possible with common and uncommon items (though certain rares make it better of course). They were effective and easily built from the stores, now they work far worse, and nothing has replaced them for new players.
I've been leveling a 2x Dwarf Wizard + Dwarf Warrior party from 19-20 through the CardStock II Secret Preview map since before the balance patch. I had to make some minor changes after it hit (trading Whirlwinds out for Gust of Wind), but my build is largely the same. The Wizards are both focused on encumber attacks (mostly cone of cold and frost jolt) and utility, with wall of fire for the primary damage. Since the patch, it's been slightly more difficult, since I'm having to stall the AI into using its move cards before I can unleash my wizards's walls of fire, but overall, my average dwarves-lost-per-map has been and remains less than one. I've been avoiding the level 18 adventures like the plague, since I need to completely overhaul my setups for them and would like to get my hands on some better items before I do so. My general party is Dwarf Warrior (penetrating, step attacks, and/or block-removal) + Human Priest (vampire-esque) + Human Wizard (burning-based). My wizard has been putting out close to the same damage as it had prior to the patch, but to do so I have to hold off on deploying its long-range/multi-target nukes until later in the round. Overall, my experience with wizards is that they are about the same, but slightly less adept at both control nuking than they had been.
