[Feedback] Upcoming Balance Change MEGATHREAD

That still relies on RNG and the items can be obtained by anyone. Thus it isn't pay-2-win -- it is pay-2-catch-up. I don't think the Randimar change is good (I'd much prefer it restocking once a week with the option of people spending pizza or gold to restock early).

The definition of pay-2-win is that you can use money to gain an advantage over those who do not use money. For example, in Dungeon Keeper Mobile when you're raiding another dungeon you can spend gems (the premium currency) to gain advantages that you can not gain any other way. That is "pay-2-win" -- what they are planning on doing isn't.

 

Well, I had another week with no legendary. Bought 3 decent epics I wasn't fully stocked on.
I like the idea of daily Randimar restocks with an improved chance for (or set numbers of) legendaries & epics.

1. It gives players an incentive to at least sign in every day.
2. The disgust caused by getting shafted won't last a week. (Though it might be refreshed every day for long periods.)
3. Even when I had a small item collection I often had a month or more with nothing worth buying in Randimar's. It happens to a lot of people, and I think improving it would definitely help the game.

I also think grinding gold in advance is a good thing, as is being selective in what you buy based upon its worth versus your savings. (Probably just a personal opinion, but it seems to work well as a general practice.)

Having the same random stock for everyone means everyone has a shot at the same thing, which can be good. A lot of people having the same thing in MP annoys some people, largely because a lot of people will now play the same items and disrupt the variety/balance of the meta. Or perhaps others will be playing something awesome you didn't get because you didn't sign in that day. (See point 1.)

If it gets too upsetting, chill out and play some SP. If you find youself getting angry because some other SP players have some better items than you, seek counselling. It's a game, and it's just for fun.

 

"Limited item gathering is basicly what this game is all about. The name suggests so itself, after all we're not playing Card Shopper (yet)".

Correct me if I am wrong but by this logic shouldn't that mean that the game would be better off without Randimar's at all?

The term Pay-to-win carries with it such a stigma that it pains me when people use it incorrectly. The fact that it isn't (and still wouldn't be even if BM decided to give access to EVERY item in the game - as long as they sell them for gold and not pizza) is a conscious decision on BM's part and is something they should be commended for!

With any card game, there will always be some players that just want to play with the full set and are willing to pay for the privilege. These kind of players obviously aren't playing for the same reason as you. Selling items more often in Randimar's opens the door to that market of players that essentially fund free to play games, a market that they are currently ignoring.

I don't understand why anyone would expect BM to continue doing so when there are already a great number of players with huge collections. These changes are designed to increase the playerbase. Yes, a small percentage of these new players might pay to have the convenience of not having to farm for items but most wont for the same reason you wouldn't.

As I said before I think 10 legendaries per day is too much but the middle ground is not 10 per week. The bonus of having randimar reset daily is that it encourages you to log in everyday. Every decision has its pros and cons, by focusing on the cons alone your denying yourself of seeing the bigger picture.

 

Since the game gives you stuff you can sell for gold, it's nice to have something worthwhile available to do with that gold.

 

There are a few things going with all these changes, and I wonder too if the 'casual time available, yet hardcore player as much as time allows' might get swallowed up a bit here.

Some of the biggies -

1) Just like so many other games, the PvE and PvP worlds collide - and unless there are some different rules applies to some cards, or some cards only exist in one world or the other, wacky things can happen.
- A very simplistic versions of what BM has already done is revealing your hand, against the AI you just don't redraw. Do more of that. I feel big leaps are being taken w/o look to certain quests, farms, etc.
- You have some fun cards for PvE, some even arguable essential for quests such as 1hp, yet the hammer is falling. Some cards (e.g. 'area maze' anyone) are destined for the dumpster for PvE & PvP for sure.

2) Randimar, farming, cash in general needs another look. Another common tendency is 'something needs adjusting, lets move all the sliders' Randimar changes itself sounds like a cluster-f to this 'casual time'
- I appreciate the once a week. I still haven't *bought* a legendary though there are a few I really wish I could have pulled off. I have managed some epics, amounting 100s, even maybe into 1000ish, OK
- Still I can plan and I can generally get Epics I *really* want. The idea of such unbelievable turnover daily means I will only see (or won't see depending on days not on) what I'm constantly missing

I'm all for some card shifts, but I also think there's a tendency to always move too far first - or even miss part of the real problem.
Doing 2 level 6 maps, and then don't complete them because you need to keep doing them, wait now you'll make them slower (FS nerf) - is this the best we can do?
What about excess items actually selling better? What about other levels giving gold, even every map *always* having a treasure slot in the chest or even just gold output?

BM you do fantastic fan service to old school players of many games, in particular D&D. But there was coin to be had too!
And a decent sellers market. The depreciation is so severe you're forced to pursue whatever map gives you the best chances to amass the cash for what you need.
But giving us *way* more to pick from with *way* less time to go for it - sounds VERY frustrating.
Amass and sit on funds? But who can/will want to with such crazy turnover? I'd probably give up on Rad entirely.

To share more perspective, I'm married with two young boys and I have much less time than I used to for gaming - enter this wonderful browser game.
I still can have fun with my limited time, and even tho a bit run over on MP ranked, with the set deck tourneys and evolving my builds and gear, I've done better.
I've dropped the dough down for the basic set, expansion and club time, so this isn't freebie ride talk either - I really hope you consider your paying casuals, too

edit - the card was Obvious Maneuver and I see it was already brought up - sorry, like I said, limited time - I agree, expand on this type of treatment for more success IMO

 

I don't remember anyone expressing concern over people having more access to item X or wanting to corner the market on it per se. This is not about the haves trying to lord it over the have-nots. What is it then?

The whole point of a loot chase game is wanting the cool items and almost never getting all of the ones you want. This makes you keep playing indefinitely. From what I understand, some people still play the 14-year old Diablo II (2!) in the hopes of getting the best, coolest loot. So far, Card Hunter has been a loot chase game. The systems under test change Card Hunter into a game where you can get everything you want in a few months. This is a profound change. It must be commented upon and not passed by as if it's nothing.

I can well understand many MP players wanting Card Hunter to be a game where you can quickly get the items you want and then test your MP skill on even footing with older players with large collections. I get the frustrations with the current system. Blue Manchu knows what proportion of their players (and especially their actual money spenders) are MP players and how much significance to put on these wants (typically MP players are around 10% of the total player base of games with both MP and SP, but we don't know the numbers for Card Hunter).

I think the current high-rarity item availability is too low and should be adjusted upwards to make the game less frustrating. How much, that is up to what kind of game Blue Manchu wants Card Hunter to be in the future. I'm personally fine with whatever. I have no dog in that race.

We know from previous games that the easier it is to get the items in a game with desirable loot, the sooner one gets satisfied enough with their hoard and bored with the game and drops it. Only hard-core MP players keep playing a game after that point. Diablo 3 players found out that outright buying and not getting the best items through play is just no fun. It spoils the game. If the main thrust of what you do in the game is you play to get loot, that loot must have value to keep you playing. When you can get everything soon and with relative ease, it devalues the loot. It is no longer all that desirable. Again, this is fine is this is what Blue Manchu wants. Not all games are loot chase games. But games that aren't need to have something else in place that retains player interest for long enough to make the whole enterprise profitable. Does Card Hunter have that in place?

I guess it boils down to why are most people playing Card Hunter? I don't know. I hope Blue Manchu does. I like them and I like Card Hunter, both SP and MP, and I wish that it stays around and does not crash and burn for whatever reason.

 

Even before upcoming balance updates Punishing Bolt is too strong. It's not exactly 10 damage, 8 range spell but it happens to be just that too often and this is simply too much.
To give other decks a chance I suggest P. Bolt to be 2 damage + 1 damage for every card in target's hand. Then it can still be blocked by Flimsy Block and it can damage opponents that have 0 cards, too. But if a player has got full hand of 5 cards, it would only do 7 damage which is good enough for a silver card. It would still have 2 more range than most spark attacks.
Also Frost Jolt and Freeze could have 6 range. Should tune wizards back quite nicely I think. Would make Frost Jolt less superior over Cone of Cold, too.
And still, flying cards/items with flying cards should get a buff so that Flash Flood would have counterplay apart from stabing over it.

 

People have already implied that it will make the game P2W, the undertone there is that the only reason they lost isn't because of skill but because their opponent had better cards. Better cards that they purchased by shelling out money for gold. Which they can do now, the only difference is at present 90% of the time Radnimars is soul crushingly disappointing and takes a week to refresh back to that same depressing state. To me while a genuine concern it seems to me hint towards people being bitter about access. Even tho you can also access via gold tho gold is still painful and or boring to accumulate.

It is also a bit of a three edged sword

On the one hand people will have more access to better cards for gold which is arguably a good thing.
On the other hand people probably will spend money to buy cards (myself not included) which isn't the best thing.
On the other other hand people who have spent money to buy cards will not put up with these large scale retroactive nerfs. Which means BM will have to be far more careful in the future about balance or risk losing their cash cows, which isn't a bad thing.

At present Cardhunter is a rather terrible loot chase game, while it is fun to play the loot as I believe I have stated previously is more often than not soul crushingly bad. Diablo 2, while fun to play constantly dropped the player incentives in the form of decent loot and tons of gold with which they could buy decent loot. You could also trade with other players in Diablo 2 something you can not do in Cardhunter.

Totally agree, to be honest the reason I came back was because of AoA but AoA isn't the reason I stayed it is almost the reason I left again. I had been expecting ~10 new quests and maybe ~4-5 new Treasure quests. What it turned out to be was 6 new quests 5 of which were treasure hunts. A fair number of which seem to confuse cheese with challenge like the Dragon at Black Plume Mountain. Which ironically is the reason I ended up staying instead of ditching this game again. Not because it was fun but because it was so painfully un-fun that I ended up checking out the forums which cued me in to the loot fairy being a thing. So I started playing pretty much whatever level the loot fairy was on daily sometimes twice a day.

Eventually I started playing multiplayer again and started getting up to the fourth gold chest a day. Sometimes even the epic tho those tend to be epically disappointing. Now I'm back to mulling over whether or not I want to bother getting to the third one and the loot fairy just really isn't as enthralling as it once was. You can only win so much and not receive any real reward before you become disenfranchised with the thought of even trying. That isn't even taking into account how many times you lost getting to those wins.

Again Diablo 3 was doomed from the very start with the auction houses because the loot table was adjusted to shoehorn them into the game. So there was little to no reward to playing save for a glut of gold and maybe if you were really really really really lucky a decent item that wasn't for any class you actually played. The problem wasn't that items were too easy to get it was that they were too hard to get which caused people to have to crutch on the Auction house. Which meant the only real thing you needed to be concerned with is grinding for gold.

Right now Cardhunter seems to have the worst of both worlds. Desirable items are both too hard to come by and there is no place to turn to purchase them with any reliability. Which leaves you smack dab in a cycle of disappointment. Questing rarely if ever really feels like it rewards you, Randimars rarely if ever has anything really worth buying once you surpass mid tier and you can't trade with people.

While trading is its own potentially devastating kettle of fish, at least in Diablo or Torchlight if I found something my friend could use or if they found something I could use we could trade. Here I am left with a bunch of epics I'm not interested in that will net me 200g towards an epic I could purchase for slightly over ten times that amount...

Not that you can even really sell epics anymore because there is no guarantee they won't be retroactively changed from complete garbage to treasure. As I learned after this upcoming proposed patch, after having sold my scuttling socks some months back because they were hot garbage that cost a gold power token. Where as after the proposed change to add cantrip they have become a almost a guaranteed backstab.

I do get that trading will never happen since the game is F2P and that would instantly tank any hopes of a real money gold market for them.

Again I agree I would like to see Card Hunter around for a long time to come, since it is a really enjoyable game mechanically. It also has a really nice aesthetic.

 

I quit playing for 6 months largely for the very reasons these balance changes address. Glad I came back to check the forums occasionally, I think this may get me to play again. I have a few concerns, dc being merged less than it's counters mostly, but I'm willing to play it out and see what happens. Who knows what may happen to the meta.

 

Your guild has missed you! We're working on the control wizard problem, so definitely stick around

 

Herp derp, autocorrect. Meant nerfed of course. The forum seems to have more issues than previously with mobile, won't keep me logged in.

Glad to see they put you on staff flax, I'm sure your input will be invaluable.

I may have more input after I get to play the changes a good bit, but armchairing will only get you so far. Alas, since I'm actually working now, the time I have to rescue my guild from any trouble they've gotten themselves into will be limited.

 

Use the forum address that starts with http, NOT https. The "s" one is bugged and has been for a long time.

 

Flax it's not just control wizards, it's all wizards now. All of the counters that existed for wizards have either been nerfed significantly or haven't been upgraded to match how strong they have become.

Hard To Pin Down was really the only way for a Warrior to get remotely close to a Wizard without having to hide behind cover for the entire match or using Step moves. Now that Step moves have been neutered, Warriors don't really have an answer. Even when they do manage to get "in" on a Wizard, Wizards have all of the same tools they had before (Short Perplexing Ray's semi-nerf aside): Toughness, Gusts of War, Weak Parry on Staff Of Chask, etc. And the draw cap means that a Warrior can't load up on cards to starve out the Wizard's answers to melee attacks - no more "superhero" builds having answers to everything a Wizard can throw at them.

I'm not going to argue for Whirlwind Enemies, since I hated "Divide and Conquer" as much as anyone else, but at the very least that strategy kept Wizards from being able to camp out and hurl spells at opponents with impunity.

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As for the "loot" thing, I understand both sides of the argument. I'm currently playing through the SP challenges (the completionist in me gets all warm and fuzzy when surveying missions and seeing those medals). Part of me enjoys it. Part of me feels really disappointed after grinding through a particularly devilish challenge only to end up with something awful at the end of it ("ANOTHER Oversized Pick?! *throws keyboard into active volcano*").

One thing to remember is that CH is fundamentally different from a CCG on a competitive level. In a game such as Magic the Gathering (which I played competitively for years), you can get the cards you need via trade or purchase. You don't have to buy a bunch of booster packs in the hopes of getting those high-caliber cards required for the builds you are trying to assemble. The barrier to entry is low in regards to time spent, assuming you have a handle on how to play the game at a high level and assuming you have access to the cards you need (either enough money to purchase them from a dealer, or the ability to borrow them from friends).

In CH, the items you have access to are determined largely at random. You can play more for more opportunities to score those primo items, but investing more time in the game is no guarantee that you will actually score those items. I've been playing for six months and I still don't have one Vibrant Pain; I know of at least one player who picked up the game and two weeks later had two of them. I could play the game twelve hours a day, seven days a week, but that doesn't assure me that I will find the items that I'm looking for.

Personally, I hate the idea of having to "grind" to be competitive. I have a very limited amount of time to spend on this game, and I would much rather spend it playing MP than grinding the same few levels over and over in the hopes that I might just possibly drop the items I'm looking for. Some players seem more willing to spend time on this game than others. Some players seem more willing to spend money. I don't want to say I want to see "grinding" done away with, but less of an emphasis on it would be a really welcome change.

 

My issue with wizards is that there just isn't much other classes can do to combat them. So when there are lots of wizards in the environment, everyone has to use wizards to combat them which makes the environment even more lopsided. Warriors and Priests need tools to combat wizards.

Warriors have only had a couple of options, mainly movement options like step attacks hard to pin down. With the proposed changes to step attacks, I don't see how warriors are meant to compete (with the possible exception of elves).

Warriors need more options to fight wizards. For one I think cards like Smokebomb, should be moved onto warrior items. Thematically there have been plenty of warrior types who used smoke bombs for theatrical effect. In card hunter it would give purely warrior teams a way to mess with wizards LOS. This would, hopefully, give warriors a way to move against a 3DC type team.

Priest should also have some anti-wizard options, and they could be great for fighting wizard strategies. I argued for this when stone feet was being redesigned (and that did drive changes for that eventual card). But give priests cards that are always good so they are worth playing (enchantments are naturally limiting), but are really good against certain strategies.

Something like:

Mass Fiery Rage
Every Ally gets frenzy 1. Melee attacks count as fire attacks. They are immune to ice (encumber) enchantments. Duration 2.

Cards like this would give warrior/warrior/priest, or even vampire priest teams a great tool to fight encumber wizards. It's much better than a reactive priest spell like purge.

 

Great ideas, Oberon!
Smoke Bombs for Everyone! Even put 'em on boots (Smokin' Sneakers, or whatever).
How about a "Slickness" attachment, duration 1 that prevents enemy attachments? (It would detach current enemy attachments as well.) Kind of like a weaker Impenetrable Nimbus. It might either be cast or applied by a block triggered by an enemy attachment. In the latter case I think it wouldn't prevent the initial damage, just the attachment.

 

I do like the idea of smoke bomb sneakers.... Puts it out there for everyone to use. Minimal impact to existing items. Smoke bomb is a silver card, so there would be a token cost to the item. But at least it's common, so the item wouldn't be hard to find.

I'm down with anything priests can do to combat encumber that isn't fully reactive like purge. A nimbus effect for enchantments isn't a bad idea either.

 

My thoughts based on the time I've had in the test server so far.
Wizards are kings again especially D-Wizzies.
The nerf to WW/WWE is great but that is about the only positive I've seen so far (limited data) in the big changes. It is still a useful tactic but not an OP effect.
Wall of Stone to FF is not a big change. I have always been on the fence about WoS since it really depends on the board.
The harness buff (not counting to hand size) is overrated (I am as guilty as anyone). Too hard to get an Enchanted plus a 3+ armor and every item w/ an enchanted has a less desirable card on it.
FS - not enough data... but delightful when Cardotron FS himself and himself only.
SPR - not enough data, but it seems like the right move
Cause Fumble is too strong, but a LOT of fun. As suggested the no facing needed or the draw needs to be removed. I'd remove the draw, but one or the other needs to go.
Step attacks... a step 3 attack is needed, no other way to consider it. I would make NS and dancing a 3 and VT a 2 or step 1 w/ 9 damage, as a warrior fan I might be biased, but without a nerf to push spells (GoW/ WOW) too too much of an advantage for the wizards.
Way too many ways for wizards to push people around. There should be no 2 target pushes (IMHO) Make Gusts of War push 4 if needed but only one target.
Smoke bomb is hugely valuable. If you ask me (don't bother I will answer anyway) this should be available to Priests and/or warriors and NOT really needed for wiz.
Right now there are very few tactics to help melee attacker hit a control wiz. I think this should be considered as it makes a lot of sense it terms of game play. BUT if this was handed over to the melee folk, it should be limited... less available (perhaps only 1 per divine item) AND a smaller area of coverage. Give the priest and warriors smoke grenade burst 1 (still range 6 duration 2) and the step attack nerf and the gust/winds of war are less of an issue. If you want to remove from wiz change it to wall of smoke to reduce using it as a cleansing tactic.

Haven't had enough encumber to discuss, but still seems like frost jolt will be powerful and now there is more motivation to have 2 Staff of Winter since encumber wont stack and no need to make sure you have more of the less desirable frost spells to stack.

No opinion no data on Bashes, vamp attacks, or other smaller changes.

Finally Cardotron somehow is even more badass... even though dumbass stuff like FS itself still happens. Used a swap on me first turn which was tough as I trapped behind Warrior unit, but got a couple of shots into Magic Unit before perishing. Nothing like getting one-shotted by an AoA Almighty to the back.

 

LOL I just realized Oberon had the same idea about smoke bombs on Melee warriors... good to see I am not making stuff up.

 

"FS - not enough data... but delightful when Cardotron FS himself and himself only."
I'd like to see what it would be like with only step-1 and step-2 attacks. Though NS and VT could get +1 damage to compensate losing 50% of their steps.
"Cause Fumble is too strong, but a LOT of fun. As suggested the no facing needed or the draw needs to be removed. I'd remove the draw, but one or the other needs to go." This is a nice idea. Removing the draw would still cause fumble but it wouldn't be insanely OP against teams with warrior(s).

 

Thinking more on this. In addition to boots, smoke bomb on some shields would probably be needed. A team is going to need a critical mass of smoke bombs.

Assuming a set of boots would have a max of two smoke bombs, and cost one token. A shield option with one or two smoke bombs would allow a team of warriors and priests to get close to enough to reasonably plan around them.

It doesn't even have to be the same smoke bomb. Rather than targeting it to an area you could make a weaker smoke bomb that would target around the user. Or a smaller smoke bomb that only hit 3X3 squares (still enough to mess with LOS on many maps). If it were a weaker option than it could maybe get onto some non token items.