[BALANCE] Balance Suggestion List (January 2014)

Regarding NS: that would be a super complex thing just to balance a card. While having something turn into another card after use is a neat idea (one I'd like to see), I don't think it would work well on any existing cards since it just adds more complexity without offering anything for the increased complexity.

Well, I actually suggested that as an idea last night. The reason why WW/WWE is so strong is because you can choose when to play it. However, changing it to a Trait that is automatically played (a la the Artifacts) would probably add too much variance to the game.

 

That would be too big change. Arcane items with 3 traits would be completely different from what they are now.
A 4-square maze to every affected character could do. They might not move at all but could move up to 4 squares away.

 

That's what I've been pushing for. Although I worry that 4 is too much. I'd say 0 to 3 spaces and ignore terrain with the movement (so people can use it to go over Wall of Stone and such).

 

An encumbering trait attached to yourself after the use of NS would do the thing, but i think we have a lot of traits right now and handicaps that you keep in your hand (slowed, arcane feedback) are more severe than the ones that you attach to youself. I think the mechanic of a card turning into another could be used also with new cards that "offer something for the increased complexity"

 

I think WW traits that don't cycle would probably 'work' to some extent.
But yeah, start-of-turn WW + card draw would be insane. Not necessarily insanely good, or insanely bad, or anything. Just insane.

@Stexe, my latest blog post on Card Hunter PvP complains about WW+NS and references you as a champion of positive change

 

You should put a link to this balance suggestion list if you haven't already!

 

I did, and I would show you but the blog post is slow to show up on the main site. Will let you know.

 

Until we see some form of nerf to NS or VP, I propose dwarf racial move be changed to Shuffle

 

Umm shouldn't we be starting a new thread: Balance Suggestion List: AotA?

Well, maybe not. After all, old problems are still problems, and the new cards+items are nicely balanced by comparison.

 

I was going to start a list of my thoughts concerning balance regarding AotA -- most of it is the same with a few minor changes.

I'd also put Dodge on the "investigate" list (from old cards) and well as Sparkling Cloth Armor and Illusory Barrier and possibly a few other things.

However, I'd say almost all of the culprits on this list are still problematic. The expansion content didn't really "fix" any of the old OP stuff -- it just released "buffed" versions of old cards and a few new semi-OP cards.

I was working on a buff list, but it was a lot of time to work on and I've been more focused on other things right now.

 

This whole discussion got me thinking about German 15th century knights sending a letter to the Italian rulers saying that crossbows are overpowered and their crossbowmen should only be allowed to use wooden-tip bolts so that the battles have more balance. Or the Polish army sending an envoy to Hitler asking to stop the offensive until they have moved more anti-tank guns from the Soviet border.

We're fighting battles here, and there is bound to be a strong, effective strategy only usable with correct equipement. Is it still possible to beat 2 dwarves with VPs and either wiz or priest support? Yes.
Is it hard? Yes. Winning a battle is about utilizing your soldiers, available equipement and the terrain to gain advantage over the enemy. When you're fighting a balanced battle you're either not giving the enemy you're best effort (in terms of pre-battle preparation) or you don't have the gear (and/or skill) to overwhelm them.

 

Games are not wars. Wars are struggles to overcome enemies at any costs -- "all is fair in love and war."

Games are about creating interesting and meaningful decisions that encourage thought, fun, and creativity. When you remove meaningful choice you create a game where players simply follow a script and play things out without thought or interest.

What type of game would Chess be if by following a set script you could win 90% of your games no matter what? There would be little room to explore, learn, or discover things about the game. It would make the game mindless.

 

I don't see how this addresses KarbonKhan's point at all. CH has a war theme, even if it is primarily a card game, and I appreciate his observation.
I'll bypass the buzz-words and state that a 'good' game is one that entertains and holds a player's interest. In short, it's fun. Whether a game is 'good' is entirely subjective, and satisfying one person or group will often dissatisfy another. I believe your positions are strongly held because you've stated them consistently and often. I suspect you like analyzing cards and strategies almost as much as you like playing the game, if not more. I respect your opinions, but disagree with some - even though I believe you've put a helluva lot more time into studying the cards than I have. My opinions are subjective.
What I'd really like is for the top-rated players and others they may select to confer and hammer out specific changes to cards and items, and for BM to put these into a special test build so anyone interested could play them on the test server for a while. I think you've suggested something to this effect. Both opinions and coding will be involved, plus you've said you have a lot going on right now, so if this happens it will probably take a long time. Should BM agree to this, I'd just ask the players involved to promise not to go Melvin on us if people don't like what you build.

 

I do like analyzing cards and strategies, but I also enjoy playing the game. I'm a game designer and I enjoy analyzing games and game systems. Card Hunter is a game, not a simulation -- therefore it is important to focus on a fun and engaging experience rather than something that mimics the imbalances of reality.

I'd love to see a test build with the proposed balance changes I've suggested (although I'd probably change a few since the expansion released), but I think there is such a limited player base on the test server it wouldn't really get meaningful statistics out of it.

And I'm all for feedback on what people think regarding balance and changes. It is all about iteration and testing. It is hard to test things with just theory crafting though.

 

I was thinking that if BM was willing to build it, they might be willing to put it up at standard times, like before they go home on the weekends. I expect this might change with notice if they had a hot change to test before taking it live. If we could help grow the testing base, it might be in their interest to do so. The players who develop an interest in testing balance changes would probably want to test other changes as well.
Flax might use some sorcerery to help expand the testing base. If SP players get paranoid enough, as we should be whenever MP ne'er-do-wells are involved in devious machinations, we'll show up to protect our interests.

Another war analogy! The first battle casualty is always the plan of attack.

 

I would love to see the test server grow. It is at like 150 people only in the 10+ months it has been around. But right now there's no real incentive to test stuff. Maybe if we had the ability for people to unlock everything and let them know that they are shaping the balance of the game it might be enough of an encouragement. I'd all be for testing some changes and seeing how it plays out.

 

I think we could promote it a bit by pointing out that with the PayPal sandbox you can buy as much stuff as you want. My current test collection has everything except 4 or 5 legendaries and the rowan staff. It's where I first played Vibrant Pain (I have 5 there), though admittedly it was all against the AI.
You can build, test, and tweak just about any build. It will work better if there are actual people to play against.
I don't know how many it will accommodate at once, but with all the time zones involved it doesn't need to be all at once. If Flax runs a tourney using the 'balanced' items he can stream it so people won't have to be on the test server to spectate.

 

The problem is that not everyone has access to PayPal. Plus, most people don't want to sit around for an hour getting free pizza and opening chests to find X Legendary item they want. Heck, I've only found 1 VP on my test account and I've opened about 4,000 chests...

Would be easier if Jon enabled some way for people to get every item to build whatever they wanted.

And yes, we would need people to test things out. Flaxative or I could run a tournament where everyone can use anything, but that would still require Jon to set up the ability for people to unlock everything on their account.

 

1. Anyone with an email address can get a sandbox paypal account.
2. Could be. For SP farmers it's actually kind of a shortcut.
3. I don't know how many I opened, but I did it over several days. Selling the excess was a b1t@h. I realllly want a button for that. It's a few hours a week just for my normal farming.

I wouldn't expect it on a build set to go live, but it might be doable on this one. A randimar/shop reset every few minutes might be the easiest method. Reload to get a new inventory. This would still require paypal unless the prices were dropped to one, 0 (if possible), or reversed so the sell price was higher than the buy. I think sandbox paypal would be best.

I guess I don't understand what you're referring to by "unlock everything on their account".

 

So here's a random question... since it is sandbox, if you had for example, my email address and password for my paypal sandbox account (note: This is a different email and password from my normal account) couldn't anyone use it to add pizza to their account?

But yeah, there should be a way to just instantly get 12 of every single item in the game for testing purposes.
Also, there should be a way to get like 999,999 pizza without asking the devs to add it to your test account.

I had a fun idea for Nimble Strike- [Step 4, discard your oldest Move card when you play this.] (So you can play it at any time, but if you have any other step attacks or your racial move, you discard that). Would take a lot more planning to play NS effectively here.

Back on topic, I would be thrilled if we could test some new changes on the test server. Or heck, even on the live server in a secondary "No WW and new card rules" ranked room. I now know about a dozen people who adamantly avoid Whirls (along with dozens who detest the cards) that would be willing test subjects for such a room.
You can only dream.