[Suggestion] Control Wizards are a problem

No one wants control 'kicked', changed perhaps but that is very different. I hope you can agree that is an exaggeration.

I see you mention the word valid when responding to Bearson, am I right to assume then that you see no merit in anything that myself and other posters have put forward in the last couple of posts? If so, please read this with an open mind (if for no other reason than to create a friendlier environment in the forums).

"The highest wisdom is seeing that in reality all phenomena are incomplete, impermanent, and not self. This understanding is totally freeing and leads to the great security and happiness which is called Nirvana. However, the Buddha doesn't speak too much about this level of wisdom. It is not wisdom if we simply believe what we are told. True wisdom is to directly see and understand for ourselves. At this level then, wisdom is to keep an open mind rather than being closed-minded, listening to other points of view rather than being bigoted; to carefully examine facts that contradict our beliefs, rather than burying our heads in the sand; to be objective rather than prejudiced and partisan; to take time about forming our opinions and beliefs rather than just accepting the first or most emotional thing that is offered to us; and to always be ready to change our beliefs when facts that contradict them are presented to us. A person who does this is certainly wise and is certain to eventually arrive at true understanding. The path of just believing what you are told is easy. The Buddhist path requires courage, patience, flexibility and intelligence."

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda07.htm

This applies to me as much as it does anyone else Im not singling you out, nor am I trying to persuade you to become a Buddhist (I am not religious myself) but that doesn't mean that we cant see the significance of the above statement.

I don't agree with the evidence you provided as proof of your claim but I wont force the issue. For the record I am happy to discuss our opinions so that we can hopefully reach a consensus, only good things can come from it. If your not willing to really explain in full detail your opinion and let it be critiqued by other players in the context of this game specifically I am not saying you shouldn't voice your opinion, but I would hope that you don't do it in a way that belittles others.

 

Thanks for the elaboration! So, to mill in Card Hunter is to play a significant amount of cards which strip cards from the opponent's hand. Ok?

 

I have not called out other members, if someone has responded to my opinion then I have engaged them. Sometimes my response wont be pleasing to the person I'm engaging but when you are in a debate that is completely expected. If people cant handle that they shouldn't post in the feedback section.

Likewise if you are going to moderate you should show some consistency in that moderation and not favouritism. My last post was entirely justified because it was becoming very obvious that you were not going to do anything about his constant rudeness, both subtle and explicit. But I know that you can see that, so I will just say I understand the situation and move on.

 

We see a lot of heat and passion on this thread and Genki tried very legitimately to calm things down. We are dealing with Cardhunter at it's fundamental concepts, it's only natural that people are impassioned and articulate. Except that they haven't been. On one side we have people who are devoutly interested in the future of Cardhunter, on the other, we have people who have a vested interest in the status quo who denigrate those who try to expose legitimate problems and concerns. "you should get better," "you should play better," "Obviously it's your item pool that's causing you problems" "I don't have any problems so your concerns are baseless and wrong." Your ELO rating isn't high enough, therefore STFU." I will not not name names, or draw quotes (beside broad generalities), apparently that draws the ire of many on this board who sincerely hate when their own words and contradictions are turned against them in an entirely logical and consistent manner. After all, how dare one be accountable for the things that they say. Especially if you can't argue a consistent argument if your life depended on it.

I am tired of these shenanigans. If you have problem with the arguments presented, then confront them and present your arguments. Don't post links to MTG articles that are five years out of date and pretend you're contributing, articulate your point and present evidence. Other game systems, ARE OTHER GAME SYSTEMS, unless you confront that (as I did) then you contribute nothing. All I've seen I've seen in opposition is ad hominem attacks and anecdotal nonsense. I have presented my case consistently and repeatedly, and no-one who disagrees wishes to touch the elephant in the room. Control Wizards, regardless of the particular format they are presented in, depend on the elimination of their opponent's counter-play abilities, and further exploit very specific Cardhunter idiosyncrasies. I want to see an opposition argument that confronts those facts.

But I sincerely doubt I will.

 

Well, since we answered about the not OPness of 3dc let's get to the part you want to being answered : 3dc isnt fun to play against and depend on the elimination of any counter-play.

About the fun part i can only answer from my point of view since its totally subjective, i found fun to play against, like any good deck its challenging and hard to beat, the only issue i have with most of 3dc is that they play too slow, and for me that the only part that breack the fun, again its 100% subjective.

Depend on the elimination of any counter-play, well that the point i have trouble agreeing with you, any good deck/play aiming this goal, you should trade card in a way to stop any counter-play from opponent to achieve the win scenario, being it encomber enemy, or camp the VP with nimbus or WWE i dont see the difference, that just ways to win, and the thing we pointed out and defended is simple : there are many way to win, meaning the game allow diversity.

You feel that the big problem is the 'control wiz' and nobody want to touch it, frankly i dont (beside trait cycling but for differents issues i will add after this part) you maybe do not meet 2war1priest often (yeah yeah blabla about ranking but that remind true) but even with a 'control wiz' isnt guaranted to win against it, nimbus/martyr are still very powerfull and the equilibrium is very tight between these comp. Ive played both 2war1wiz and 2war1pri to 1600+ and these 2 build, 3dc and 1 1 1 are all viable, if you nerf wizard we might see less diversirty and that the main problem we have about your thread.

And again i really hope they releasing new content soon and all the meta will totally shift so we probably talking for the few months it remain in this state.

About the trait cycling i will just C/c what ive said in the Wind of War thread :

3dc is balanced, the problem that card cycling remind something abusable and should be nerfed :

1. Cause futur cards/items may be stronger that the actual one and we could have lot of issues with it on a later stage of the game.

2. Cause it cause a side effect i feel is gamebreacking, that trait cycling deck cause the opponent debuff removed without the use of an intentionnal card like purge

 

Let's all calm down and remember that we're here for a similar reason: we like to play Card Hunter. Obviously there will be differences of opinion, so I ask everyone to show respect for those opinions, even if you might not agree with them. At the end, we all want CH to be the best game it can possibly be and to explore why certain aspects of the game may work better than others.

I don't have a problem with quoting someone within the thread they are an active participant in or asking them to clarify a statement. The only issue I have when "calling someone out" has been detailed in those threads dedicated to shaming certain people for behavior in-game or what have you. But a thread starts to seriously get derailed when it ends up not being about the topic in question and ends up being more about certain users. If they're becoming disruptive, drop one of us a line and let us know. There're a lot of posts on this forum and they can slip by, but something reported definitely doesn't.

In the end, the only person whose job it is to be yelled at by everyone is me. So if you've got some yelling (about me not handling a problem properly, about not talking to someone who might need it, or even my hygiene), direct it my way and I'll do my best to figure out the best solution.

 

Well you haven't, beyond because I say so, and further while 3DC is one of the more famous control builds, we're talking about control wizards in general. 2 warriors, one Control Wizard is still a control build for instance, the specific format of them does not really matter. What matters is that they are ubiquitous, and have the least amount of counter-play options of any Cardhunter build style.

Yes at some point in the game counter-play becomes impossible and the winner is all but assured. This can happen anywhere from the first card played to the very last card played, that point is blatantly obvious. It is also not what we are talking about. Counter-play is this specific context is about the tactical options available to player when confronted with the control wizard win state. When you are immobilized on top of lava, you have the least amount of options of any state in Cardhunter. Often you depend on drawing very specific cards, and that is dwarfed statistically by the 24 card deck available to the control wizard. The wizard can continue to enact that state throughout the game, whereas everyone else is just praying they draw their counters at the right time.

I'm also glad that you brought up Nimbus and Martyr's Blessing (and yes I see 2 warrior one priest as often as anyone else (aka not as often as we all see control wizards), will you stop making terrible arguments based on ELO? It's an ad hominem attack that doesn't confront any of the arguments made, but at least you acknowledged it's a bad argument I suppose, maybe in the future you will refrain from using something that undercuts your own position) Martyr's blessing is a powerful card for sure, but unlike control wizards, which depend on the opposing player being unable to play cards, or move, or interact. This card requires the active intervention of the opposing player for it to take effect. It is powerful only through counter-play, not despite of it. Nimbus is also really good, but it only lasts one turn. Sure it's spammable, but it often just deprives the spamming player any options besides delaying the inevitable, because of all the other tactics forgone in order to make it consistent. Further due to it's one turn duration, it requires careful and judicious usage to be effective. Unlike say, frost jolt, arguably the best encumbrance card to to its ease of insertion into a deck. Does a control wizard have to think carefully about the encumbrance cards he deploys? Not really, it's early and often for him, just keep hammering away with your consistent draws until you get the state you want.

And while you seem to think we have diversity, I would disagree. You list four decks, 4! that's not diverse or interesting, and three of your decks include at least one control wizard, also not that diverse. Hitting control wizards will allow other wizard builds that currently see little to no play, such as spark mages, to come to the fore. This will also allow decks that aren't either using control wizards, or built specifically to counter them to see play as well. I want tons of diversity, and we do not have it currently.

But we do agree on one thing, the main problem is trait cycling. The main reason we see control wizards is their consistency, remove that and they won't be able to consistently control the battlefield, thus enabling builds that aren't built just to counter wizards to be effective against them.

And last but not least, you still haven't addressed the main point. Unlike any other build in Cardhunter, Control wizards DEPEND on imposing a non-interactive state. Regardless of any other differences of opinion, we should all agree that a position in which you are unable to do anything is very bad for the longevity of the game, especially one we all care so passionately about.