Vibrant Pain.. and how to fix it

I think you're overstating the power of this card. Nimble Strike is definitely a powerful card; and a large part of its power comes from being able to do two things (ie. move + attack), but that does not mean it's effectively two cards. There are many single cards which have more than one effect and so I think it's not really appropriate to compare it to things like Unholy Power. Drawing two cards from Unholy Power may (and often does) result in drawing two cards each with multiple effects.

You've claimed that nimble strike would still be a competitive card if it only dealt 1 point of damage. I think that's a long stretch. Obviously it would still be useful in the same way that Dash is useful - but I don't think a 1-damage 4-step attack would compare well with ordinary cards such as Powerful Hack. You've said that the current version of Nimble Strike is 'clearly an emerald card'. I suppose what you mean is that Nimble Strike is at least as good as other emerald cards, such as Obliterating Bludgeon and Inspirational Thinking, and that it's significantly better than gold cards such as Mighty Hack, All Out Attack, Quick Run, and so on. I think that's questionable. I think the current version of Nimble Strike is probably good enough to call 'gold', but I think it would be pretty weak as an emerald card. I know I'd prefer to have something like Obliterating Bludgeon + Quick Run rather than have 2xNimble Strike.

Even with the current version of Nimble Strike, it isn't always superior to other silver cards. For example, I'm pretty sure that a warrior with Bejeweled Shortsword would reliably defeat a warrior with Vibrant Pain in a 1-on-1 fight - particularly if the warriors also have some decent armour. The movement from Nimble Strike can be very powerful - but it's power depends a lot on what your opponents are doing.

Finally, I dislike what you've said in the last part of what I've quoted here. I think it's pretty rude to put a blanket criticism over anyone who disagrees with you. There any many possible reasons why someone might say there is no 'problem' with Nimble Strike. For example, some people might think it's fine to have some very powerful cards in the game. Some people might think that Nimble Strike and other step attack cards are the primary power and flavour of warriors and to remove that power would diminish the class. A person who holds such a view could understand very well 'the fundamental strength of step attack' and yet still disagree with you about it being a 'problem'.

I agree that Nimble Strike is very powerful, but I just don't think it's as extreme as some people in this thread are making it out to be.

 

Sure, I wouldn't run a deck of only nimble strikes if they dealt 1 damage. I would run other cards to deal damage, and damage buff cards either on the warrior or on a supporting priest. But as a one-off card, nimble strike @ 1 damage is way better than powerful hack in my book. Any card that can do two things—not to mention both of them at the same time—is better than a card that can do only one thing. Sure, the power of those things needs to be examined when making a comparison. Half of nimble strike would be at least 1/11 as good as powerful hack, if the power of these cards is only the damage (I'd argue it's not, and that an attack that deals 1 is more than 1/11th as valuable as an attack that deals 11, because damage aside, you're adding buffs, you're checking for blocks, etc.).

Not sure it's fair to compare two sets of two cards like that when trying to make a point about one card. Here's an example: I'd rather have Obliterating Bludgeon + Wimpy than 2x Strong Hack. What does it mean? And while I might agree that having Obliterating Bludgeon and Quick Run in hand together is slightly stronger than having 2x Nimble Strike in hand, I'm pretty sure I know which set of two cards I would rather have at deck construction.

And yes, I do think that Nimble Strike is a significantly better single card than all of those gold cards you mentioned.

The "nothing is strictly better than anything" argument? You're always going to find corner cases where a supremely powerful card looks at least slightly worse than a much worse card. Say, Nimble Strike and Weak Strike. A gnome throws a pinning spear at me, and now I can't play move cards. Suddenly, Weak Strike's a lot better than Nimble Strike because hey, at least I can play it for 2 damage. Better than a dud, right? So yes, you can imagine a scenario where one or both halves of Nimble Strike are less important. But if you look at the vast majority of scenarios, you'll probably find that Nimble Strike outperforms those other silver cards by a pretty large margin.

• If a dominant rare card that outperforms almost every other card available to the class is the "primary power and flavor" of the class, I think you have a problem with the class. And I think this is the case with warriors. This is why I think people are looking for ways to make martial skill items and cards more interesting. This is also one of the problems with priests, at least in some iterations of the meta (I've heard a lot of people say "if you nerf mass frenzy, there's no reason to play a priest").
• You're right that I didn't consider people who dislike balance. For the sake of those people, I apologize for my rude absolutist comment. Allow me to rephrase:

I think basically anyone who, after giving it serious thought, argues that there's no balance issue with Nimble Strike in the current PvP meta, doesn't understand the fundamental strength of step attacks in terms of card advantage.

Thanks for checking me, karadoc. I hope my latest statement is more to your taste.

 

I dont see a problem with Vibrant Pain, its a level 18 legendary, so if someone got one, he is very very lucky and reap the benefits.

Its not like a easy achievable Draw Deck atm or a good Control Wizard Deck, which is slighly harder to get but still pretty easy.


Its a great item and it should stay the way it is.

 

Very interesting point, could it be that most players misuse their warriors and instead of being a barrier of protection and punishing the vibrant pain wielding warrior when he comes towards their mage they are just careless\inexperienced enough to not be there and let that mage fare all by himself?
I mean, barring card advantage (which is an issue that should and is dealt seperately) if your warrior has Vibrant Pain then unless I have a gimmicky weapon myself I should have the damage output advantage and should strategize accordingly - keeping my vulnerable characters at arms reach - is something that's always possible, it's just a matter of prioritizing: do I send my mage away for that second frost jolt attempt or do I keep him two squares away from my warrior so if he gets "nimble striked" my warr is vicious thrusting to punish the enemy.
And, more importantly, is it a problem that we have such items that may lead to players playing like that, where discretion and caution are dominant?
I know most players usually go gung-ho towards the victory point, usually leaving atleast one character defenseless which ultimately results in Vibrant Pain death and their ultimate conclusion is that it's OP.

 

In terms of Bejeweld shortsword vs Vibrant Pain - if we assume an open terrain the nimble strike will always go through (i.e. you can always flank), while shortswods will end up caught in parries and blocks if one carries them.

 

But would you rather have Oblit Bludgeon + Quick Run 50% of the time, and 2x Oblit Bludgeon 25% of the time, and 2x Quick Run 25% of the time? Or would you rather have 2x Nimble Strike 100% of the time? You are missing the value that comes from consistency. With Oblit Bludgeon, you have to still get in range. With Quick Run, you have to still do damage. Nimble Strike gives you both in one card that doesn't require drawing a specific other card too.

I'm not so sure. Nimble Strike is amazing for getting behind a warrior to avoid his blocks.

This is a great post. CH really needs some type of balancing strategy. So far it seems pretty disorganized.

 

The point of consistency is to support chosen playstyle. Vibrant Pain supports "step warrior" archetype (i think it can be called archetype at this point) that trades pure damage for mobility.

If you feel that mobility is too important, then we'll have to remove WW/WWE as well. Forget about dashes - it can negate entire Sprint, Team!.

If you roll Obliterating Bludgeons instead, +3 meaning life or death happens much less frequently then if you go Nimble Strikes. Nimble Strike means battle of attrition, you cannot be escaped, but you CAN be outdamaged, and your damage is severely hampered by any armor unless you happen to have Frenzy Aura ready - Frenzy Aura which isn't even "keep" for blocking enemy attacks.

 

We're also assuming (?) that the VP warrior even gives a hoot about the bejeweled guy. Usually when I spectate, he's the guy who's totally ignored while the VP user is off assassinating easy wizards who dared to stand within a mile of him. Sure if you force these two warrior builds to stand and bash at each other then one clearly does more damage per turn, but who's going to agree to stick around for that kind of match up when they can just sail away? The only times I can think of a VP player feeling forced to consider this is in the case of going up against an entire team of BJsword warriors who have victory point control and refuse to budge or offer any openings.

 

That is matter of proper positioning (often including positioning in round before that - so, player "skill") and map design. Nimble Strike isn't teleport or free move, it respects character stop zones, stop terrain, so sometimes you have to take a gamble and attack from front - and not the character you would really prefer to.

If you can be reached in dash and there is nothing between you, you _know_ it's a gamble. If you see Vibrant Pain on Nimble Strike, you _know_ more will come. Most of the time people still prefer to take risks and hope for the best - but you can play safer and stay in tigher group to counter it.

 

You are absolutely correct. I have played about 200 matches with a build that has 2 warriors, both armed with tons of Vicious Thrust and a couple of Nimble Strike, and avoiding the enemy tank warrior was exactly what I was doing because it would be silly to walk in front of them and exchange blows.

Most teams have at least one soft target, so my strategy was to first rush the enemy wizard (or priest) and then just basically use the 2 vs. 3 numbers to win the match. This simple strategy got me to rating 1400-1500, and 90% of its success was because of Vicious Thrust and Nimble Strike.

Most difficult matches were the ones where the opponent had 3 heavily armored and hard hitting tanks. Nimble Strike was definitely less useful in that situation but it was still a very good card because it enables you to move fast and attack from behind. And when you gang up on these tanks using Nimble Strike, 2 vs. 1, they fall no matter what their armor is.

Like Flaxative said there earlier, I think the main problem is that people who think Nimble Strike is fine haven't really used it and do not fully understand the power of step 4. They look at the numbers and base their opinion on how they assume the card works. If you only look at damage numbers, Mighty Bludgeon might look awesome and 10 times better than Nimble Strike, but unless you get close enough to your target to actually use it, those numbers mean absolutely nothing.

 

Nimble Strike is a great card, but it is not terribly imbalanced. It currently looks very overpowered, because abundance of draw makes it extremely easy to buff the warrior so that the low base damage does not matter as much. Simply removing one damage should balance it fine, you would trade 4 step for 6 damage then by using nimble strike.

 

People in their strawmen OMG Oblit Bludgeon is super neato / nimble is bad head to head construction, don't understand that nimble strikes DO NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM. You aren't 1v1ing people. You have the advantages of being buffed and supported by teammates. Also, the good players running nimble strikes have ways of mitigating your parries.

There are thread after thread after thread on these forums of people who have successfully played at high-ranks, who are exposing problems, and get counter-posts from either people who are willfully obstinate or simply lack the experience, or possibly, are just using their conceptions that because certain things are cool they must be balanced or don't need fixing.

The devs have access to metrics. They know, or should know, that at the upper echelons of play, teams employ certain items/compositions BECAUSE THEY LEAD TO SUCCESS. Running a dwarven nimble strike warrior with war cries on the team, and a priest or two for buffs WILL AND DOES LEAD TO DISPROPORTIONATE SUCCESS. How people fail to grasp this basic premise is beyond me and is extremely frustrating.

The success of Cardhunter Multiplayer, in part, is going to depend on whether the multiplayer approaches some semblance of intelligent, non-formulaic for the sake of being formulaic, balance. Fixing card draw is a good step. But its not the only step. My personal opinion is that Card Draw / Nimble Strike / WWE, WoW, WW, Racial Usefulness, all need to be more balanced.

*Any formula that values a step 4 damage 6 ability as silver in quality is broken and needs tweaking. Other step attacks trade damage for range. If step 4 damage 6 is silver, then would it be fair to make a step 5 damage 5 or step 6 damage 4 gold card? Warriors need intelligent, effective limitations to force solid gameplay.

 

There is some truth to that part of NS's strength is because +damage is so widely plentiful, but it's not going away because of drawspam by a long shot. The fact though is step 4 is pretty gamebreaking and provides way too much mobility and utility in one card. The card really really should be gold and step should probably be capped at a maximum of 3 on any card.

However I do think that a change like that needs to coincide with a nerf to WoW and a few other wizard control spells, or that will become even more game breaking and prevalent.

 

So does other team. You CAN have formation where enemy has to nimble strike frontal visible parry or waste nimble strike without attack to get non-parry side next turn.

It's not strawman, i run BOTH in my party and see how they both perform. Both can be countered, both can feel useless/op, and if you play right warriors cannot go for mage on current mp maps... but that obviously assumes you don't move mage first to get vision for encumbers (or to claim VP), and save that move until it's definitely safe to move as well as covering sides with his teammates - if your team hinges on him being alive, that is. Sometimes it's okay to sacrifice one to get other.

Fairly often i see Nimble Strike warrior isolated after he finishes his target, then dead right there (or next turn). Because saving Nimble Strikes for sure kill means not saving armors (other then frenzy)/shields/parries

 

Personally I like consistency for two reasons: 1) It allows you to take advantage of opportunities when they show up; and 2) It allows you to reliably execute strategies.

Consistency is the difference between playing chess and rock-paper-scissors.

 

Pilgrim, I'm gonna have to ask you to take it down just a tad. I understand you're passionate here that doesn't mean you can presume that someone's differing opinion is them merely "talking out of their asses."

We do watch the games - they do not exist in a vacuum - and we do take notes. Jon and company do not like to act rashly and that may be too slow for some of you. That's unfortunate but please trust in the team to continue balancing Card Hunter. They are working very hard on it.

 

No formation in the world is going to protect you against a good player running dwarves with these cards, all of your useless parries will be ignored and you will have a dead team.

 

You do realise that the most anyone can have in character deck is two? That's not consistency, that's "lucky draw" - and you're not guaranteed to see which character is holding parry too. Having it on Helm also means no Sprint, Team! , while having it on Dwarf Skill means one less Frenzy Aura.

 

Thank you! You're repeatedly expressed opinion has been duly noted. After considering your arguments, I think increasing the step range of Dancing Cut to 5 might decrease the possible dominance of Nimble Strike.

 

Oh dang why didn't I think of that