A heartfelt letter to the Devs (State of the game)

It's too pay2win right now. It's a pity cos I really like this game. To get the items you need you either have to get really lucky or pay a lot to guarantee item.

 

Given that legendaries are generally so so if not used in a very particular build while the best all-rounded weapons and stuff are common/uncommon than I don't see how this game is P2W. Especially that everything is available to everyone - the same items that can be bought can be also found. It's pay-to-speed-up-RNG (club membership, buying thing at Randimar's rather than waiting for it to drop), but not P2W.

 

I really don't feel that the game is pay to win at all. All you can really do with money is slightly speed up your grind. You can absolutely get everything the paying users can without dropping a cent (aside from skins). If there were certain items that were member only, then ya you could make an argument for pay to win, but I don't imagine them doing that.

 

Randimar's epics and legendaries might as well be member only. Its impossible for free player to buy even 1 legendary+1 epic per week, while pay member could. Thats p2w to most ppl.

CH: But you can grind everything!
Public: Sure, if you have 50 hrs in a day.

It's just a illusion you can get everything. I want this game to be popular, and who are the people that stayed after the publicity? People who believe in this illusion. It cuts no ice with most people.

 

Usually not an problem, as getting that many usefull items in Randimars seems less than common. Maybe Epic or few.

Then again, p2w is highly dependent in perception. If games like LoL and WoT aren't considered p2w, CH certainly isn't. And truly p2w games are entirely different beasts. Comparable stuff would be stuff like only minor tokens unless you pay, 1 adventure/Mp win per day unless you pay or rare+ would only be available via money. And all those browser/facebook games where you either pay or wait.

 

No offense, but just coming off of my membership yesterday (not renewed for a few reasons) I never found myself playing enough that I could get and Epic + Legendary every week. Membership or not I save my money and given that everything bar legendary treasures really return much profit even me playing 15+ missions per day for a few weeks wasn't making that much cash. I do not feel the game suffers from a P2W syndrome so much as more SP content and/or co-op/draft tournaments being vital to the long term health of the game. Just my opinion, but there it is.

 

I echo many of the sentiments posted by OP and others early in the thread. A regular "state of the game" post by the devs would be massively appreciated. It doesn't have to give promises and cast iron release dates, we just want an idea of what is being worked on and what we might see soon.

 

Card Hunter punishes you for not paying for club membership by visibly withholding loot after every battle.
Card Hunter allows you to gamble real money for rare items that can make your first playthrough significantly easier.
Card Hunter breaks the fourth wall mid-narrative to tutorial you through spending real money. Multiple times.
Card Hunter puts real-time locks on completed adventures, artificially slowing down SP players who haven't bought treasure hunts etc.
Card Hunter stocks Randimar's with hugely expensive legendaries that even heavy players are unlikely to afford without dumping real money for gold to buy them before the week is up.

If Card Hunter isn't a pay-to-win game it is trying its darndest to look like one.

 

Yes, regular updates on the game's development would go a long way with making the community (and potential new players) happier.

Also, I think CH is as far from being p2w as you could possibly get in the context of a f2p game like this.

Obviously paying customers do get a few advantages, which mainly come in the form of time saved (you need to grind less for stuff). Also, the fact you can buy gold to spend at Randimar's... really? Even letting aside how unlikely it is for an actually very good item to be on sale (cause of the huge item pool) 2500g for a legendary, and 500g for an epic... man, that's like, 15.15$ and 3.03$ at the worst conversion rate. For items you might get by simply playing some more. Duh?

Like, in the very short term, that will probably convert to a concrete advantage, cause paying customers can buy themselves some equipment, while free players didn't have the time to grind for all the stuff they need yet. But after enough time has passed? Free players will have looted more than enough stuff to be on par with everyone else in the game. Actually, chances are hardcore grinders are well in front of most paying customers as of right now...

Also, as pliers cleverly pointed out, most of the times epics/legendaries aren't the most OP items in the game either. This has been pointed out by Jon himself here.

As a matter of fact, I didn't spend whatever I did because I felt the need to go p2w, but rather cause I wanted to support a game I enjoy this much. Chances are, if I went free-only, my current collection wouldn't be that much different from what it is today. Sure, I would have a bunch less items. But I only use a very minimal portion of those anyways, so yeah. And anything I didn't have, I could get by simply playing some more.

If you want to know, what pizza really does is helping grown-ups with a job (like me and many others) who can spend some money with staying relatively on par (gear-wise) with the huge amount of people who can to spend all of their free time playing the game. And even then, chances are whatever membership or gold purchase won't be enough to let you fill-in the gap between you and those who are grinding for 14+ hours a day.

But truly, pizza mainly is a way for letting people to support the game's ongoing development, so that even free-players like you can enjoy a wonderfully crafted product without needing to spend a buck to do so.

There's a bit of confusion about what p2w really means, I think.

 

I don't think CH is P2W, but I agree that it's trying really hard to look like it.

 

Having played games that are actually pay to win, it is my firm opinion that CH is very, very far from being that. Free-to-play players have access to almost all of the content, get free pizza that can be spent on premium features, and can be very competitive in PvP (although with more playtime required for the same power level). That is very far from pay-to-win in my book.

 

All of this come from a problem with assumption:

This is assuming that you should get loot by default, and by not having it, you are crippled (ie punished)

This is assuming the first playthrough should be easy.

There is no assumption made here. Though the game do break the fourth wall several times already with its theme and story.

This is assuming the SP with all treasure hunts is the default, and anyone who does not have treasure hunt is "slowed down".

This is assuming players must buy these legendary everytime they are in the shop every week.



If these assumption are made, the game is clearly P2W. However, these assumption are not true and was never the game's design intent. There is a problem, however, when players starts automatically assume these. Then it is up to the developer to communicate their intents properly

 

1. Regardless of whether the game is balanced around having the club membership loot or not (in my experience, it is), the way in which that extra loot is presented is obnoxious. It's a constant, gaudy, and immersion-breaking reminder of the distinction between paying and non-paying players that irritated me for different reasons on either side of that divide.

2. The intended difficulty - or what any given player assumes that should be - is irrelevant. Dumping sufficient real money into game will make it easier to win for the first time. The game makes it clear that this will be the case and even has its in-game characters encourage you to do so. QED.

3. Card Hunter's story is effectively contained within two 'world's - that of Gary's household, and that of Cardhuntria. The player takes the role of Gary's close friend / a party of heroes respectively. When Gary explains to the player eg. how armour cards function, that fits neatly into the upper-world narrative of Gary as a GM showing his friend how to play within the lower-world narrative of Cardhuntria. When Gary explains to the player how they can pay real money to Blue Manchu to instantly gain random loot ... it's very apparent that it is not Gary's friend being addressed, but you the real player being goaded into spending real money. To be fair, there is some attempt to blur the line between 'IRL' and 'Gary's household' (eg. Blue Manchu existing as entity within the latter), but honestly that makes the whole thing feel more dubious / manipulative to me and acts as a frequent reminder that the otherwise self-contained narratives exist to sell you things rather than to be enjoyed.

4. Card Hunter uses wait gaming. That's not an assumption, that's a thing that it does, is with good reason highly associated with pay-to-win games, and I've yet to hear a (non-monetisation) argument for that couldn't be implemented in a much less obtrusive way for players such as myself who prefer to binge their games then move on.

5. If a game's store regularly stocks legendary items, it is an entirely reasonable assumption that a player should be able to occasionally afford those items. I spent a *lot* of time playing SP over the last month and I even had club membership, but because I wasn't willing to spend further real money, I never had enough gold to afford even a single legendary.

 

1. Not arguing, since it's personal experience whether the game is too hard or too easy with those loot. Mentioning immersion breaking is on point 3

2. This is true. And there has been barrier to prevent this from happeneing: The increased cost of items in shop when you are low level. It is true that you can buy an easier time with the game. I'd still say you cannot buy win.

3. Obnoxious or not is personal opinion, the fact is true that there's money calling at the end of every battle.

4. Your original point was about treasure hunt, but I'll discuss wait time. The mechanics here are not the same wait/energy mechanics being presented in other F2P game. In the instance of F2P games, wait time exists as a way that force player to check back frequently (using their phone or FB) resulting in more play time stretch over the entire day rather than a straight session could. These wait times range from few minutes and even up to a few hours. Having wait time of 24 hour is counter-intuitive to this goal. Players wont be forced to engage to the game the entire day and can just check in daily (which is precisely what daily chest track and shop reset is designed to do). One major difference is that to release the players of these annoying wait time, they allow player to buy their time in, resulting in instant gratification and more wait time after that. There is no way to reset completed adventure in CH with real money or not. It exists solely as a way to prevent repeatedly farming of a certain module. Whether or not this mechanic succeed in doing so, I'll sadly have to say it hasn't and farming is still easily possible.

5. This again depends on personal experience, if you ask for my personal experience, I have not paid a single dime inside the game other than the club rewards and in the period of 1 months I constantly have enough money to buy 2 legendary item. But I have bought only one and a bunch of epic/rares if that counts for anything (and still have 5k left to have 2 legendary item at any moment's notice). I'm not crazy hardcore like some players are and only get the epic chest only once during the first week of the game. The rest of the time, only 2 gold per day. Remember, 1 month is only 4 instances of Randimar's reset, being able to buy 1 legendary every 4 reset actually is a reasonable ratio.

I have no idea why you couldn't afford a single legendary, even if you have said you have no club membership. I joined the beta without membership and there isn't much of a difference there to attribute yours to bad luck. Perhaps the problem is overspending gold in other places ?

 

I am just trying to help.

Just because the devs fooled some people doesn't mean you fooled everyone. And I would say the general public is not fooled.

They know that it is realistically impossible to get stuff, though theoretically possible given 50 hours per day. They didn't get lucky like progammer and luckout into legendary(treasures).

Perhaps you are relying on a whale-centric strategy, in which case the more power to you.

 

As I said, I wasnt getting lucked out, never got club member during the entire beta, never paid a dime and i'm still sitting at 5k gold by the end of it. Being a little frugal can save you a lot of gold. Legendary/epic treasure will come if you just keep playing. The problem with it is it's not guaranteed and not gradual. Most people already quit before they can have some decent amount of gold. I guess looking at that 2.5k legendary everyday while your gold is sub 100 is very discouraging. All these obnoxious call for club reward doesnt help these player. To be frank, I'm very sad the game keep with that business model which will (for a fact) discourage player away even though they never help whale P2W in the very least. It is just the illusion non-paying players feel. Underlying these are a very solid game, a MP mode where you can compete without needing the most expensive item. It wasn't designed around you having every item in the game, it was designed around you having some legendary items and some other players have some other (also the reason why randimar is different for each player). So you might have a shiny sword but the other guy have a shiny shoe that can out run you etc.... It's all about perception. If you think beating the game means having every single item, then you won't be able to do it.

The rarity of items is what keep the longevity of the game. If you can afford a legendary every weak, the game will be dead in 1-2 years. It's the kind of loot that make games like D2 or Path of Exile lasts forever. For now it seems like I can afford 1 legendary (or 5 epic) on demand every month. (And still get a few more random legendary by playing as well)

But then again if loot are too hard to get people will quit and the game will be dead in a year anyway.

There are a lot of games out there, to the points where people start to get Steam fatigue with their Steam library. Even though I'm defending this game, I cant persuade you if you cannot put up with such mechanics or what the game is designed doesnt match up with what you expected. Feel free to forget the game, considered getting your money's worth and try some other games. There are honestly too many out there...

 

While I disagree with OneMoreNameless on most of his points, I think he is having more of a problem with capitalism rather than with BM and CH.

Is the fact they let you see what your club membership reward would be that much irritating? Man, I guess every shop should immediately remove goods from their windows, otherwise free-to-walk bystanders might get irked, right? Yeah.

And yet, I feel like pointing out that there can't be a meaningful gameplay experience without a compelling challenge for the player to overcome. You overcome those challenges by simply using your brain: the game actually makes a wonderful job with assuring the player has the minimum tools to beat every following level (i.e. you do get guaranteed drops basically for every adventure, even if you might not be aware of this), and even thenwhatever amount of gold you gain through the game is more than enough to let you buy cheap (but great) common/uncommon items you might need.

Please, don't be one of those guys who hit the forums to post things like "OMG MISSION XYZ IS IMPOSSIBRU Y TEH GAME SO HARD???" only to come back 5 mins later saying "THANKS GUYS I FINALLY MADE IT AFTER FOLLOWING YOUR AWESOME PRO TIPS ". Dude, was the game really that much impossible?

Game actually isn't that hard at all if the player uses what the game is teaching him at all the times in conjunction with what's inside his head. Which is the point about making challenging games to begin with: using your brain. Yes, maybe you'll die a few times but, unless you try and bruteforce your way through the game by using the exact same decks/strategy on every mission (something the game will punish), most adventures can be completed with relative ease by simply adapting your deck to the adventure's at hand.

But yeah. Obviously that's nonsense and BM simply wants to sell more memberships...

BTW, yes, they indeed need to sell those memberships, otherwise they'll have to eventually shut the game servers down. These kind of games are quite expensive to make and maintain. You know, paying customers are the ones allowing you to play the game for free, so maybe you should be glad the irking club reward is there, after all.

 

LOL

I sympathize strongly with anyone who's anti-capitalism, but this was a pretty good point given the premise of the game and the society in which it was made.

 

I paid, and I can't win
the game is more of L2W (luck to win) than P2W.

Sure, there are advantage to be had with club and such, but not the deciding factor. And frankly, it is a commercial game, and the dev need some of that evil green stuff to make better game for us.

I would like to see more paid stuff added.

 

I agree that there is a huge luck factor, up to a point. That's part of what makes CH so fun/frustrating (in a good way). I do not at all agree that CH is P2W. It's anything but and the arguments against (thus far) are painful to try and logic out.