The Pizza gal seems very inappropriate

I love the nostalgic view you've taken with the game and the two brothers are genuinely funny, which is so rare in a game, but I think you really missed the boat with the pizza gal.

I want to share this game with my partner. She is a huge game player, loves magic, RPGs, etc. Why create a dumb storyline that makes her feel like an outsider??

Leave the sexism in the past, that's one thing we really don't need to bring to 2013.

I'm only at level 10, so I'm assuming the pizza gal will eventually join them and play. I get that, but by then it's too late, damage has been done and female players will be turned off. And it's such a fantastic game, it really should be played by a very wide audience.

 

Keep playing. It's Gary that's sexist. The Pizza Girl is not as she first seems.

 

How do you know it makes your girlfriend feel like an outsider if you haven't actually shared with her yet? Why don't you try a couple things and then come back:

A) Finish the story
B) Introduce your partner to the game and give her a chance to think and speak for herself
C) Ease up on the kneejerk WhiteKnighting a bit until you've done both A & B

 

I definitely see the point you're making and I was a bit uncomfortable about it as well. In the end though, I don't think it's too bad. I don't think the female character herself is portrayed poorly, and the social awkwardness of Garry is pretty minor in terms of sexism.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but from my point of view I'd say that the characters themselves are not sexist at all, but the trope itself about boys playing board games and being socially awkward around girls is where the sexism exists. At least, that's what was making me feel a bit uncomfortable. It's not so much what the characters are doing, but just the fact that it's a common trope... Anyway, a bit further into the game I think it improves a bit.

 

As I said I figured the story was going to have a turn, but that's much later in the game.

Anyone can spot sexism or weird gender stuff, you don't have to be a woman or a "white knight".

The story is of two men talking to you, while the pizza gal flusters Gary. It's told from an entirely male point of view. That's not inviting to female players.

 

Karadoc - exactly it portrays male game players in a stupid light as well. It just doesn't fit what is otherwise a really smart and original game.

To put it in a very different context, if the pizza delivery person was black or indian or of a different race noone would find it funny that Gary is so awkward. As a culture we laugh at sexism or tolerate it, but we've grown much more aware that racism is quite serious. I hope that the developers can see that it doesn't make sense.

 

While a really extreme example, you could just as easily call American History X a racist movie because of the prejudices the main character has. Instead, his mindset is shown to be a serious flaw and he grows out of it, just like Gary. Well the comparison ends there, but a story with characters who are perfect and politically correct right at the outset doesn't leave much room for character development.

 

It's not wrong at all to ask for more female representation in the game, but this is a game that plays out fantasy stereotypes for comedy.

One of these is exclusively boys play games like D&D, Magic, etc. When we laugh at Melvin being a controlling GM, for many of us, it's because we've seen that character played out (but in a real way) in the real world. We've seen girls avoid gaming for sociological reasons. Now it seems a bit archaic, but for many of us that have grown up in a time of severe sexist stereotypes, much of this basement dwelling, all male, sword swinging, female exclusion rings a bit true.

That's the fun in the comedy of this game. The characters are socially awkward (and possibly exist in the 80s or 90s) and would never approach a girl in the real world. Trying to apply modern thinking to this game seems way off-base to me.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I wanted to defend the storyline here. If any women are feeling excluded by the game that is a real shame.

 

What's the deal these days with calling things 'tropes' when they reflect reality?

 

Gary is a kid. He's still figuring it all out. A lot of geeks go through a socially awkward phase, where they don't quite know how to interact courageously with folks of their preference, yet. It doesn't make them bad people.

At least he's not, you know, some 100-year-old vampire being socially awkward around a teenage girl, because that would be pretty ridiculous.

Speaking as a player, Card Hunter has no third wall. I think of myself as a participant at the Card Hunter table -- so when I'm there, there is always a woman at the table. So far, Gary and Melvin haven't said a single thing to me that suggested they believe otherwise. If they do, I will have to have some words with their Mom about what she's been teaching those boys.

 

Gary's reactions don't make any sense unless he and Melvin are down in the basement playing Card Hunter with boys they know from high school. Its the assumption that the player is a male that is the problem.

 

I fail to see how the player is assumed Male...

Edit: damn, Pengw1n beat me by 60 seconds.

 

Pengwyn - Are you being serious? Come on.

I thought this forum was for giving feedback and suggestions to the developers of the game, not for fans of the game (I am one) to defend the game against any criticism.

 

Okay, I give up. I won't engage with other players about this issue any longer. I just hope the developers see this and consider the way it impacts players. Half of the people I know who are avid game players are women and I hesitate to suggest this game to them, even though I think they'll enjoy the gameplay a great deal.

Returning to the 80's model of women don't play games and men are awkward around them may be funny or true for some people, but it doesn't have anything to do with the people I know. And yes, the women I know sometimes talk about the lack of representation of women in games or the very weird representation of women in games. It bugs them and rightfully so.

 

You don't back up your point when we try to engage you. This isn't engagement if you aren't willing to have a discussion.

 

There is no sexism here. Gary is much more of a stereotype than the Pizza Girl, who, as others have pointed out, you're not far enough along in the campaign yet to know really well yet. Karen is friendly and socially confident, and ends up defying stereotypes, while Gary and his brother reinforce them. You'd have far more basis to complain about the stereotype of male tabletop gamers as socially awkward loners than anything to do with the girl.

Even if the game does assume the player is a male character (and I'm not sure I agree that it does), I don't understand what's wrong with this. Is playing a game with a female protagonist sexist because the character is assumed to be female? Is Half Life 2 sexist because Gordon Freeman is a male character? You'd think that a tabletop RPG audience would be more open to the concept of roleplay.

I think some of the overreactions here are a bit kneejerk.