[Comment] Multiplayer kind of ruined my Single Player campaign...

Spot on - I agree with absolutely everything you said! Flooding items (no matter if in reality they are weak, any lvl 18 item will seem extremely powerful to a lvl 5 party) into the PvE Campaign 'broke the spell' for me - and will do the same for many others.

Cheers!

Mad Hab

 

In my case it made me want to level more so I could use the cool new items and get more high level stuff. Just because some people don't like it doesn't make it bad for the game. Devs need to determine if it deters more people than it encourages. Personally I think making the starter set mp only would hurt more than help.

 

I understand that many players will enjoy receiving lvl 18 items for free while at lvl 5. But if the devs can please both audiences (different people will play CH for different reasons, right?), shouldn't they try to do so?

Cheers!

Mad Hab

 

I'm far more worried that the devs balancing the game for MP will ruin my SP experience. There have been a lot of nerfs recently on cards that caused no problems whatsoever in SP, but got nerfed because they got abused in MP.

 

Mad Hab.. I found out about filtering items to "useable" that fixed having items I didn't need yet for the most part... but I still think the introduction into MP and the influx of items into SP could be looked into. Right at that same point in the game (about) .. you are introduced to Chest and Barrel and are given some higher level items for free too. I'm lvl 8 now in SP and I'm looking forward to a reset and live release.

 

I don't understand the OP at all. You were given items to use in the single player campaign for participating in multiplayer, which is an obvious and reasonable motivation to get campaign players interested in the multiplayer.

You suddenly had items in your inventory that you could not use...so that ruined the game for you?

When you see items in the store that you cannot buy or use yet, does *that* ruin the game for you? Does that give you any less reason to level up as quickly as you can so that you can use *those* items as well?

I'm not trying to mock you, here, I just cannot understand what you are trying to say.

Why would you lose the will to hunt for better items when you cannot use the high level items you earned during multiplayer? If you are going to keep playing the single player campaign you're still going to have to keep saving gold and hoping for rare drops and doing precisely what you were doing before you tried multiplayer. Nothing about getting those multiplayer items actually gets in the way of your loot hunting or progression.

It sounds like this has more to do with the psychology of power leveling than it has anything to do with the design of the game, and Card Hunter doesn't feel like a game built for power levelers. It feels like a game you're meant to savor.

 

It is all about psychology. It is how he feels.

You are running around with a pointy stick, you struggle and find a nail with a bat in it. Yipee! You are stronger, you can do more!

Then you find a shortsword Stronger again!

Then someone slips a loaded revolver in your back pocket and says "Hey buddy, don't use this till tomorrow night, ok?"

Then, you find a broadsword... but you've got a gun waiting in your pocket... I guess it is a bit better than the shortsword. But I would really rather just use the revolver right about now...

Correct, it isn't the end of the world or anything. And for many people, it isn't a demotivator. But the OP wanted to let the developers know that for him, it was. Some others have mentioned for them it was as well, and many others have said for them it wasn't. Neither support nor refutation is going to change how the OP feels about it, nor likely what the developers do with it.

I suppose the closest you could get to feeling the same as him would be if the developers raise the level cap (which we know is supposed to happen eventually), but they only do it for one of the play modes (SP or MP, doesn't particularly matter which). Or if instead of a starter pack with level 18 items, they gave all of us starter packs with level 30 items (but MP was still level 18!)

 

The items you see in the stores are within a few adventures reach, not end game items. You totally lose the sense of exploration when you get the "here's the kind of stuff you get at the end" feeling. I either need to rush to the end to get the stuff that is so far above what I have now (making anything I find in between feel pointless) and/or they are so far out there that I'm not interested in working for them so why play?

 

The problem as I see it is that this person doesn't realize that by tomorrow (in the analogy) where you can finally use the revolver, by that time you will have a submachine gun and be working towards an assault rifle and will probably rarely if ever actually use that revolver. Also that some enemies are wearing bullet proof vests and you have to shank em with your nicest sword, or some areas have metal detectors and you need to go lower-tech. -having too much fun with this analogy-

But seriously, if when obtaining these items it was made clear that they are not actually very good, and that other items you can obtain before you can ever even use the offending items in sp will surpass it either in direct power, utility, or ease of access (tokens), perhaps people wouldn't get so flustered when they see what they perceive to be a great item that they just cant use yet.

 

It doesn't matter how good these advanced items are... it matters that the person can see that they are there and that they are much better than the items they have now.

How about just hiding all items no characters you have can equip?

 

Better is relative. A level 18 common item is going to look better than their level 6 epic to a noob because it seems to have better cards and they do not understand the token system. Instead of changing the game mechanics, we can instead change the persons perceptions by explaining this when they get the pack.

Something like this:

Problem solved.


There is already a button to hide the items you can't equip.

You are forgetting the rarities shop, chock full of a variety of amazing items you can see at any time.

 

The problem is more the cards than the items themselves. See, this game doesn't have a Magic: The Gathering-like cost system, where more powerful cards (usually) have higher demands. Here you can draw (and use) a very strong card in the starting turn, so there's no need to have a balance between weak (cheap) and strong (expensive) cards.

So let's say the highest damage a card I have can deal is 8. When given a 18-level weapon that has just one card that deals 18 damage, my 8-damage card suddenly looks very weak. I know there must be even better 18-level weapons (one that has six 18-damage attacks, for example), but that single card gives me the impression that my best weapon is now junk.

I would make players earn each piece of equipment they acquired (unless, of course, they want to pay). I know I might not have a chance with my meager 6-level equipment against someone who has 18-level weapons, but from what I read here, I will still not have a chance to defeat a well-equiped party with the items I gained from the Starting Pack...

Cheers!

Mad Hab

 

It matters because of the token system. You cannot gear out in all high token gear. That double yellow token common axe is crap because it consumes tokens that can be better used elsewhere. In my opinion the problem is clearly in the perception of the items which can be solved by a better understanding of the item system.

You cannot use that weapon. By the time you can, you will have been using much better items for some time. You can see items much better than this one you get in the rarities shop. I really don't understand how one can be so turned off by a crappy piece of gear when approaching the situation with a working knowledge of the gear system. In this context, again, the problem is not the gear, it is the lack of information presented with the gear.

 

I understand the token system very well (and I like it, I must say), thank you very much. That's not my point. For a level-5 player, a level-18 common item and a level-18 legendary item both seem extremely powerful. Understanding that "this level-18 axe (that is so much stronger that your level-5 axe) is in fact junk if compared to the real good level-18 axes" won't change the feeling the player gets when his level-5 party gets level-18 gear for free.

Cheers,

Mad Hab

 

Of course better is relative...by definition. Perhaps you mean perception? The problem is they don't NEED to know about the token system to see a higher powered (and cost) item to completely ruin the experience of finding their next 10 upgrades to their current gear or even in game experience.

"Damn it, I could have won that if I could use that spear that's sitting in my inventory."

Yes, a disclaimer might help... but it still pulls people out of the experience none the less. Your disclaimer also doesn't even address the issue of piling on a bunch of items that you can't use into your inventory. And why would you want to tell people, that the gear they will be getting is "not actually powerful" when it's likely far above any other items they've already seen thus making their items, again, seem like junk and encouraging the feeling of needing to race to the good items.

Without the MP section, and just playing through the campaign, every upgrade you come across is a good item because it's better than what you had before. You're happy to get it and encouraged to see what you'll get next! Having even better items sitting in your inventory you just look at new stuff and go, "meh, it's better than what I have now but still sucks, why can't I use the cool stuff I already have?!"

Which is not on by default, and sorts by selected character, and doesn't take talent points into consideration. But yes, there is a button that does not fulfill what I was suggesting -- Hiding items that none of your characters are able to equip.

I'm not. Shops are unlocked at appropriate times through the game. You are introduced to them slowly, only when your characters have a chance to be able to use them. So you can see the items "any time" only once you've unlocked the shop.

 

So what feeling do you get seeing a level 18 common when you understand the token system? I would imagine it would be "oh here is a poorly itemized axe that I will never use outside of these early MP missions. How immediately convenient but ultimately useless."

I maintain that the problem is not getting the items, it is people not understanding what they are getting when they get them.

Yes I mean perception of what is better. The card that does 14 damage period is objectively better than the card that does 8 damage period, but the fact that it comes on a two yellow token item makes that item subjectively worse in the great majority of situations, which is not immediately apparent to new players when they get it.

I guess this is the disconnect here. I do know that the game is difficult, but do people really fail and blame the fact that they aren't magically already level 18 with that gear? Leveling and getting gear is the main drive of the SP campaign anyway, yes seeing the story and experiencing the nostalgic feel, but primarily to make your characters more powerful as in any RPG. Why does seeing gear with higher numbers somehow mean you need to get there as soon as possible. If one is playing WoW and someone links a legendary item in chat while they are out leveling, how does that diminish your current struggle? Encourage to level up sure, but I fail to see how that plants the idea that you need to be able to use that item now or else just quit the game.

Much of the gear you get early on is sidegrades with some give or take, or completely different styles of items. There are few clear direct upgrades. The fact that these higher level items appear to be very clearly very superior but have these strange token thingies and you somehow can't use them should give a person an idea of the same sort of balancing act we make when gearing characters. Yes it is better, if you have the tokens. Which you don't. I can see how that would encourage someone to play more and level up so they have tokens, not to quit because you don't have the tokens NOW.

Automatically hiding these items could cause more problems than it solves for most players. People would be wondering why they don't have those items they just received, where they are if they want to sell them, possibly filing bug reports. If it is not on by default, they would still see those items initially and have the same initial reaction. It seems like this different button would serve the same purpose as just pretending they aren't there and not fulfill any gameplay mechanic.[/quote]

I am pretty sure Randimar's Rarities unlocks fairly early on, I am not certain where it falls in comparison to the MP tutorial, but regardless it does unlock early on and has all levels of items available for browsing. High rarity items for gold. Items that you cannot wear now, but can certainly wear later, available to from a very low level. How does this not have the same problem? Why does just being in your inventory make one want to quit? They are both gated by level, one just needs to be purchased first.

This is an RPG, a gear and level driven game. Of course there is better gear out there than what you have, this does not make your current gear less useful for you right now.
Let me try to explain how this sounds to me with a completely bull**** analogy or two:

You have an old MP3 player you bought from a garage sale and like to listen to music on. Your grandma heard you like MP3 players so they buy you the newest coolest MP3 player off the internet and have it shipped to you, they send you the link to the thing and the tracking number so you can check it out, but they sent it standard shipping. If you are just patient and keep listening to your music on the old one for now, you will have a cool new one in two weeks. So you look down at your old MP3 player and just think how crappy it is compared to your new one. Your buddy sees your utter disdain for your suddenly insufficient device and gives you his slightly newer one for free, and you spit on it. Yeah it has a slightly bigger hard drive, but compared to the cool new one you are waiting for, it sucks. So you throw yours away, you throw your buddies away, cancel the order for the new one and never listen to music again!

Another totally ridiculous analogy:
You are 15 and have an old bike that you have enjoyed for awhile. Your parents buy you a car and say hey, as soon as you turn 16 you can get your drivers license and drive this car. Suddenly your old trusty bike starts to look like rusty scrap, you just want to drive now. Your buddy, seeing your distress decides to give you his bike, which is newer and has a sweet gear-shift. Try as you might, you can't find any joy in your heart for a good old bike ride, so you sell both the bikes for scrap, light the car on fire and vow to walk everywhere for the rest of your life.

 

I've said this in other threads and i'll say it again here.

Perception is as important if not more important than reality in cases like these.

You can make the best argument in the world to tell someone why what they feel about some part of the game is wrong, but by the time they are here, reading that argument, the damage is already done. If you actually want this game to succeed, stop trying to tell people that what they're feeling is stupid and wrong and start trying to come up with ways to help the devs prevent it from happening.

My suggestion: Stop sending people to multiplayer at level 5, before they even understand the talent system. Wait until level 10 or 15 to have Gary show it to them unless they click the button on their own. At that level they might be able to use some of the items or will at least have some idea of how long it will be until they can use them.

 

I did explain that the perception is a result of poor information at the time, and I did suggest a fix:

 

Then what exactly do you hope to gain by continuing to argue this point?

 

Entertainment C'mon those analogies were hilarious.