[Feedback]Cards with an over/underrated card quality

This thread is for listing the cards that have a quality classification (the color of the title bar) that does not reflect the real value of the card in a gameplay situation.
Getting the classifications right is important, because it lets you easily see overpowered items and helps the AI with its discard decisions.

Currently cards ratings go from:
1(Bad): black bar
2(Weak): brown bar
3(Average): bronze bar
4(Good): silver bar
5(Great): gold bar
6 (Powerful): emerald bar.

Here are the cards that I feel are misclassified. Feel free to add more.

Armors:

Resistant Hide: Should be upgraded from 4 to 6.

Reliable Mail: Should be upgraded from 4 to 5.

Enchanted Mail: Should be downgraded from 6 to 5.

Arrogant Armor: Should be upgraded from 4 to 5.

Horned Plates: Should be downgraded from 5 to 4.

Attacks (melee):

Vicious Thrust: Should be upgraded from 4 to 5.

Nimble Strike: Should be upgraded from 4 to 5.

Penetrating Stab: Should be reduced from 5 to 4.

Puncturing Stab: Should be reduced from 4 to 3.

Strong Bash: Should be reduced from 5 to 4.

Barge: Should be reduced from 4 to 2.

Attacks (magic):

Fireball: Should be increased from 4 to 5.

Firestorm: Should be increased from 2 to 4.

Freeze: Should be reduced from 6 to 5.

Whirlwind Enemies: Should be increased from 3 to 4.

Frost Jolt: Should be increased from 4 to 5.

Blocks:

Acrobatic Flip: Should be reduced from 5 to 4.

Parry: Should be increased from 3 to 4.

Shield Block: Should be reduced from 5 to 4.

Hard To Pin Down: Should be increased from 4 to 5

Divine cards:

Consuming Touch: 2 to 3

Cleansing Burst: 4 to 3

Impenetrable Nimbus: 4 to 5

Heal: 4 to 3

Touch Of Death: 4 to 3

Mass Frenzy: 4 to 5

Demonic Feedback: 2 to 4

Unholy Power: 5 to 6

Purge: 2 to 4

Bless: 5 to 6

Help The Weak: 3 to 4

Twin Heals, Light Heal: 3 to 2

Minor Heal: 2 to 1

Racial skills and Traits:

Blind Rage: 2 to 4

Impaler: 3 to 4

Holy Presence: 3 to 4

Altruism: 3 to 4

Spark Generator: 3 to 4

Kindler: 3 to 2

Advanced Battlefield Training: 5 to 3

Sprint Team: 5 to 6

Battlefield Training: 4 to 2

Retreat: 4 to 3

Shuffle Team, Walk Team: 4 to 3

Elvish Insight: 4 to 5

Scuttle Team: 5 to 4


Edit: 05/08/13 added divine and racial traits.

 

I'd be cool with most of those changes, and/or at least I wouldn't disagree. I disagree on the valuation of these two:

I see you suggest the single largest reduction for Barge, dropping it from 4 to 2. I'd say 3 at the worst. The fact that it's "Push 2" (instead of 1) is very, very different from other cards, and I find there's a world of new strategy available once you have that much control over your enemy. (For instance: it is the only way to Melee-shove an enemy out of Stab range.)

I feel Acrobatic Flip must be valued above Parry. I'd say to keep the flip at 5. Generally, I think your suggested Block section is less clear-cut than your others.

 

I find the push2 effect to be such a situational ability. Your allies are usually not in melee range and a warrior extremely rarely wants to push enemies away. And at bronze level it would compete with 8 damage attacks (mighty hack, strong bludgeon). I cannot really find many scenarios where I'd rather have push 2 than 7 damage.

As for the block section I agree that it is less clearcut. However most of the time I'd rather have the twice as reliable parry with an extra card draw than the flip. The flip is too situational to deserve gold status.

 

I think I'd be comfortable with all of these changes, but I probably wouldn't make all of the changes if it was up to me. Of the suggestions listed, I think the most important ones are Resistant Hide, Whirlwind Enemies, and all of the listed attack cards - except Freeze and Frost Jolt. Freeze is obviously significantly more powerful than Frost Jolt, and so if Frost Jolt is going to be 5, then Freeze has to be 6. Also, although Firestorm is very powerful it's also quite situational. Maybe it should only be boosted by to 3 rather than 4, especially if one of your motivations for the changes is to help the AI choose which cards to keep. (I don't think I'd trust the AI to use Firestorm at the right time.)

Barge is an interesting case. Barge is essentially a weaker version of Telekinesis - but on the other hand, Telekinesis isn't available on warriors. I'm not sure if Barge should be quality 3 or 2, but I definitely agree that it isn't good enough to be 4.

[edit]
The last part of this post wasn't showing up, because I was missing a '/' in one of my [card] tags.

 

The ai uses it immediately after getting it (from Pickpocket).

 

There is also 7 Amethyst? (purple) bar just a fyi

And i agree that barge is not impressive at all as said by someone else its a bad telekinesis ... as if that card wasn't bad already.

 

It wasn't the fact that it is a ad telekinesis. It ís a telekinesis effect that is not exclusive to wizard, so that warrior and priest can manipulate position.


I can still be boosted by dmg increasing buff so it can still do quite decent dmg.

 

I set them both at 5 because I feel encumber 2 does roughly 80% of what encumber 3 does, namely preventing vicious strikes and making enemy warriors slow enough that you can easily escape. Still I can see how you would value it more if you run a lava deck. However I feel that a tradeoff of one point of damage for one more encumber is not worth a whole powerlevel.

 

Agreed with everything except Resistant Hide, which I'd only increase to 4; Freeze, which I'd leave alone, and Holy Armor, which IMHO should be downgraded to 2. Seriously, it protects less than and triggers less often than Cloth Armor. The fact that it heals your allies makes it keep up. With Cloth Armor. There's no way it should be Bronze status unless it either gets Armor 2 or a 3+.

 

Holy Armor is pretty nifty. It is essentially armor 4 if you have two injured allies. And it can actually turn fire damage into healing for your allies. I'm currently running three in my firestorm deck along with two Leather Harness on one of my cleric. It is not the most powerful combo, but feels right for bronze level.

 

Heh. Turns out I'm ******ed, and failed to notice that you don't Keep Cloth Armor when it triggers.

So yeah, nevermind.

 

The way I see it, encumber 3 is significantly more powerful than encumber 2, because 3 is enough to completely halt normal human movement (ie. Run) whereas 2 is only enough for dwarves (Walk). To me, that's a big deal.

 

Wellllllll . . .

It and other similar cards depend on your end-of-round hand size. The worst Blind Rage can ever do to you in one round is 6 damage. On most single-player maps right now, most enemies will approach in melee, and my melee-focused characters with Blind Rage will use up those Attacks and suffer 0 damage.

Now, multiplayer. Suppose an enemy freezes me while I have Blind Rage: I now have Move cards for spare padding in my hand. Usually, I can now discard the Attacks and suffer 0 damage. (I have other problems, sure, but not from this Trait.)

I love taking advantage of a Goblin Berzerker's rage to cause it pain. But that rarely happens to ME. Thus, I value the card above "paper" quality.

 

I haven't used Blind Rage much myself, but what Sir Knight said sounds right to me. I haven't used it in MP at all, but I've always found it to be a pretty helpful card in the single player campaigns. I'm sure I'd prefer to have Blind Rage in my deck than, say, Simple Strike or Cloth Armor or Clumsy Chop. So I agree it could be rated higher than "paper".

... if the self-harm from Blind Rage was triggered before cards were discarded at the end of the round then it would be a lot more risky.

 

Blind rage is easily a 4 to 5 rating. In singleplayer it is essentially a three damage buff that replaces itself. In multiplayer it is not quite as easy to use, but as Sir Knight notes most of the time you keep armor or move cards on your warriors when discarding, so the drawback is no big deal there.

 

I have added divine items and traits since Jon seems interested:

Divine cards:

Consuming Touch: 2 to 3

Cleansing Burst: 4 to 3

Impenetrable Nimbus: 4 to 5

Heal: 4 to 3

Touch Of Death: 4 to 3

Mass Frenzy: 4 to 5

Demonic Feedback: 2 to 4

Unholy Power: 5 to 6

Purge: 2 to 4

Bless: 5 to 6

Help The Weak: 3 to 4

Twin Heals, Light Heal: 3 to 2

Minor Heal: 2 to 1

Racial skills and Traits:

Blind Rage: 2 to 4

Impaler: 3 to 4

Holy Presence: 3 to 4

Altruism: 3 to 4

Spark Generator: 3 to 4

Kindler: 3 to 2

Advanced Battlefield Training: 5 to 3

Sprint Team: 5 to 6

Battlefield Training: 4 to 2

Retreat: 4 to 3

Shuffle Team, Walk Team: 4 to 3

Elvish Insight: 4 to 5

Scuttle Team: 5 to 4

 

As before, I wouldn't particularly argue against most of those. My attention is drawn to the larger changes, because those tend to be the most influenced by personal experience (instead of general experience, where large spikes in use/disinterest would be averaged out more).

Demonic Feedback may be a 3, but I'd say not a 4. Getting two cards is way more awesome than one (Inspiration), but it's Unholy this time: that interacts poorly with the typical Priest cards of Altruism and Demonic Revenge.

Purge . . . yeah, that's a 4. But it SHOULDN'T be. The game SHOULD have more ways to remove attachments. Until then, 4.

Blind Rage we discussed and I wouldn't disagree.

Advanced Battlefield Training and Battlefield Training I compare to Improved Telekinesis and Telekinesis; though, come to think of it, why is one "Advanced" and the other "Improved"? Anyway, we're talking about a fundamental gameplay power that is pretty easy to use in the "Advanced" version but really, really difficult in the "Normal" version. This does not mean that the "Advanced" version is bad, and I'd argue that Advanced Battlefield Training should be no worse than a 4: these cards are the only way to create absurd out-of-character-class combos.

Likewise, the "Regular" one might go down only to 3.

 

Blind Rage feels about right to me as it is. Just often enough, it crops up on the first turn and hits you for 2-6 before you can close to melee range and there's jack all you can do about it, or you get Halted or Encumbered or otherwise end up out of range on turns 3-5 and have to choose between taking the hit or keeping that Obliterating Bludgeon to use next round.

It's good.

As to the list above, the only argument I have is with Impaler. It seems just right to me as it is; I don't see the point in upgrading it at all.

 

I strongly agree that Help The Weak needs an upgrade, but I don't think Limited Heal needs to be downgraded. In general I think Silver Healing Ring is far too good to be a level 15 common.