Beta brutally unfun around level 7 and above.. help!

I think a good solution for those who are feeling frustrated at being inexperienced with tactics would be to create a new area which is unlocked at the start of the game which acts as an optional "training grounds". I dunno if this has been suggested before, but it seems like a good idea to me. Make it a location where you can enter and pick from a variety of mock battles, with expanded tutorial advice for how to overcome certain situations (chokepoints, armored enemies, long range enemies, etc). As long as there's no experience earned from these battles, and it is completely optional, it should be useful to players without getting in the way.

 

You could do this by setting up a game with a friend using a casual PvP map .

 

That's not a good solution for people who are new to the game and inexperienced though. Odds are: a) they might not have friends playing the game, b) even if two inexperienced players set up a casual PvP map to play each other, they probably won't learn anything. I think it's pretty important that designers offer ways for players to learn how to play the game better if they want to. Scenario-based tutorials in the form of mock battles are a great way to achieve that.

Personally, I don't find the game too difficult at all, but I chalk that up to having experience playing deck-driven RPGs and SRPGs in general. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that there are many people out there who will probably not have a natural understanding of what such a game expects of a player in a given scenario, and if there's a way a way to make the game more intuitive to that audience without compromising the challenge in the campaign - why not?

 

I'm saying that because it seems too easy for me to lose a party member in the first round of the match! I can do much the same with my own party but only if I draw perfectly (random). You need utility cards for specific moments and there is very little you can do about building an all attack card deck anyways... So a lot of losses are due to dead draws. It has been so bad lately that I make sure both my wizard and my priest have a single copy of Leadership (Inspiration isn't my favorite).

 

I definitely have to support duckrolls point of view as it is expressing a lot of my concerns and solutions to them. Additionally I might add the idea that it could be fitted in the game story as Gary trying to figure out how the combat system works. As far as I can remember around "The White Star" Gary's Brother somewhat trains him. Maybe a training map could be like Gary saying "So Melvin told me some things I wanted to try..."

 

Having just completed cardstock II, I think the people having "brutal" trouble are truly unfamiliar with the very basics of grid based tactical combat altogether. Getting a character completely obliterated in the first/one turn is extremely unusual (the goblin hulk, one of the earliest heavy hitters you meet hits for a maximum of 11 in a single turn and only a level appropriate elf wizard can get one shotted by that I think) and having it happen on a regular basis strongly suggests that (sorry to say this) you're doing something horribly wrong.

May I ask what your mindsets are like with regards to the different classes ? My uninformed speculation is that some may be trying to tank everything with their lone warrior with their wizard and priest staying behind the scenes to avoid damage whenever possible, casting support, heals and dps from relative safety. The warrior rushes out as fast as possible to engage as many foes as he/she can (and consequently getting surrounded).

If any of you are doing this, you need to stop NOW. This isn't WoW. I'm not hating on WoW here, I loved that **** and raided for years but CardHunter isn't WoW. Continuing the wow analogy, your warrior isn't a prot warrior or blood dk who can stand at the front lines ad infinitum with a healer. It is at best, an arms/fury warrior in pvp gear. You have good hp but you can't just stand there and and aggro everything with the expectation of surviving. Likewise, the priest in CH isn't some squishy guy in a cloth robe who falls over the moment an enemy sneezes on him/her/it. The protection provided by divine armor in CH is comparable with heavy armor for CH warriors and they are more than capable of taking some hits. Heck, with some of the lifesteal cards I find my priest giving my warrior a run for his money when it comes to outlasting the enemy. (Note that my priest-warrior comparison is heavily influenced by racial dynamics. In my case it's a dwarf priest/human warrior combo)

Minimise the number of opponents you're facing at once. If there's a time for tanking, it's blocking chokepoints so the tanker only deals with one enemy at a time. Against a heavy hitter, run like the dickens and only face them head on if you have a good selection of parry/armor/block/heals (or suicide attacks). Don't rush out and get swarmed. Look at the enemy's mobility options carefully and try to plan ahead. It's quite safe to pass the first turn just to see what kind of mobility the enemies have (unless there is something crucial at stake, eg chokepoints, victory squares). Here's an example of exploiting mobility (and being exploited):

Two trog spear dudes with fresh hands are chilling out 3 squares away from your warrior. Do you A) use your run to move 3 squares, plonking yourself right in front of them, B) move 1 square, leaving a 2 square distance between the warrior and the trogs, C) wait for them to move first.

A) this typically leads to only one result, the trogs move one square away and proceed to turn you into a pin cushion. NEVER willingly walk into an enemy's attack range without some kind of plan.

B) you're just outside the trog's attack range and it is likely they'll have to spend a run/scuttle to move one square towards you, putting you in stabbing range. Not the greatest as far as plans go but if your warrior is a range 2 stab specialist as well you get the first attack at least. If you have additional movement options, this forces the enemy to waste a run and will allow you to close the gap unless the enemy has extra mobility in reserve.

C) the trogs move 2 squares towards you, putting you in stabbing range. Your movement card is unspent and you can close the gap. There is a chance that the trogs have reserve movement cards but this now allows you to land other cards like damage tiles etc with much more certainty.

Compared to the rest of your hand I would say your initial movement really decides how the rest of the round will go. Think carefully before you move instead of rushing ahead.

 

Ah, about crude plates, there's an additional factor is often overlooked. The knockback with a successful damage prevention roll. This lovely mechanic allows you to throw a bunch of dots on a single trog and laugh as the trog is bounced to some corner of the map at the start of every turn. This leaves you with one trog, which should make it easier to flank and nullify the damage prevention. Dissolve armor and acid tiles are also your friends.

 

I see two matters here: First, "learning how to use different strategies." Second, "tutorials on how to use different strategies."

Why do I separate those very-similar ideas? Because the first is the most fundamental part of strategy gameplay possible: it's a strategy game, and you are supposed to learn how to play it. The second, however, places the onus for YOUR strategic learning on the DESIGNERS. That's only partially true.

Consider, Red Eye Ragnarok: you were bothered by Troglodytes with high maneuverability. This person over here was completely okay with high enemy maneuverability, but NOT with Armor. As I keep telling everybody who will listen, we have a huge list of folks finding different strategic challenges to be difficult. You know what this means? You CONQUERED all the challenges that stopped all these other people! You learned just fine by playing the game! There is nothing wrong with going to a forum for THE ONE STRATEGY that you missed during normal play.

Now think about the designers. Blue Manchu's job is to create level after level with unique and interesting strategic challenges. If they wanted to create "tutorials" for range-2 enemies, and Armored enemies, and Blocking enemies, and melee-berserk enemies, and victory-point-hogging enemies, and everything else, they would have to create a "strategy guide" for almost every level. That is not worth their time, and that defeats the point of their creating this game in the first place.

This is a strategy game. Of course not all gamers have a natural understanding of strategy for each and every scenario: NONE of the gamers will, because NONE of them have played this game before. You the player "play the game" by learning strategy.

Having said that . . .

There is nothing wrong with teaching basic strategic principles to people who don't know how to begin their own education. Hence you'll find guides for chess and every other strategy game. Sure, if Blue Manchu DID have the time to create some specialty tutorials (like for the lowest-level adventures only), that might be great! Meanwhile, everyone has access to the forum, and that serves most purposes.

 

First of all I have to agree to all of your points and I clearly have to thank you for taking your time to explain this stuff (to me and others) over and over again, but please don't get me wrong when I am trying to express the problems I am facing and suggesting possible solutions, that may (or may not) be helpful for the game. I tried to avoid sentences like "the devs should" or "the game is" and because I want to be a helpful little feller and give an mostly unaltered view of a new player.

On a side note: after finally being able to beat the second map of "The Compass of Xorr" which is was struggling lately (I wasn't able to outmanoeuvre the damage I think but I somehow managed it after reaching level 9 on all Characters and being able to pick off one servant early) I was somewhat surprised how easy Melvelous the Magnificent was. While marching through that adventure I thought this teaches movement pretty effectively by giving you direct (standing on sharp stones equals bad) and indirect (those traps don't wield VP? Just leave them!) feedback. As I am lacking the experience with this game this may sound incredibly dumb, but I would like it if Melvelous would be an earlier adventure.

 

My post was not intended to "trample" yours, I must say. I feel that somewhere along the line I may have gotten a bit more enthusiastic than needed. Just please understand that I adore game design and really like to talk about it.

As to difficulty, some concepts certainly are nastier than others. The Compass of Xorr made your melee attackers miserable thanks to Blocks (and dogs); Melvelous the Magnificent mostly set you against melee fighters without such tricks. If there were a "short list" of beneficial tutorials, then anti-Block would be in there.

 

I think that when we compare the relative difficulties of the same map, we tend to forget that our class/race makeup can change everything. An all dwarf party isn't going to play like an all elf party and since cards come in suites, the deck structure of the party is also vastly different (A lv 18 elf wizard has 17 hp ??? How do you elf people manage that ) and hence maps present vastly different challenges even with the same theme as Sir Knight mentioned. It might be useful to mention our party makeup and general build direction when making comparisons and opinions for better clarity.

 

Another contributing factor that I really noticed was the slots that are opening up that I can't fill yet. My Warrior has an empty helmet slot (3 cloth armour), and my Wizard has an empty Human Tactics slot (3 * walk). In the White Star map with waves of kobolds, if you effectively waste a turn drawing movement or garbage armour cards, you're in *big* trouble. I noticed multiple turns as the fight dragged on where a character was completely useless for a turn, and a few devastating turns where multiple characters couldn't do anything useful.

As an odd suggestion, just slowing down how fast new slots are unlocking would make this window a bit easier for me.

 

The only trouble I have in quests, is fighting against those
enemies which practically can one hit you, or kill you in 2 hits.
...kind makes your fighter useless, cleric concentrated on healing
and the wizard/mage my primary(and only) ranged attacker.

Maybe there is some cards which are useful against 'one hitters',
I just need to dicover them AND have them on my hand when needed.
(there you go, replay ability until you got the cards when needed )

 

If you have a new slot, well, you'd better try to fill it. Do you have the gold to buy something from the store? Have fun. And thereafter, you'll get better items as you play, just as you did with the very first slots open on a level 1 character.

Care for suggestions?

First, does the enemy have Clumsy? Your problem is solved: get behind it.

Next, use Blocks. Blocks, Blocks, Blocks. My goodness, a Parry is the perfect thing to have on-hand versus those heavy hitters. You let the enemy walk next to you, hit it once, deflect the enemy attack (and draw a card), and then run away with nigh-total impunity.

Also, does the enemy have range-1 Attacks only? Load up on range-2 Attacks!

Then, whether you use range or not, Bash cards sure do keep the enemy away from you.

And thus your Warrior isn't "useless": instead, your Warrior is "uninjured." Meanwhile, your Priest is casting damage boosts on your Warrior, making those few good hits on the enemy do even more damage. Likewise, if truly needed, your Wizard can cast spells to move the enemy as well (e.g., keeping it at range 2).

 

Yeah parry is good ...when it doesn't fail.
Blocks/Armor = lots of items, where should fit in my attacks (hand limit)?
on that note: You can have good cards, but if you move cards and other
passive cards come out in piles, not good. AND if your armor/block rolls
fails ...I think you got the idea now.

Now that said, it is bordering to a very heavy problem on the dull side,
with those 'one hitters', though I do like a challenge, but oh my a challenge it is
...especial hunting for those items(some of them because of their cards) you want.

 

"The cards come out in groups" and "I'm failing my armour rolls" are just part of the game. The next time you play, the circumstances will be different. These problems also affect the Bad Guys, too, of course.

On the not fun issue, the amount of pain and suffering I went through playing the Trog Cavern adventure is ingrained in my memory. The wailing and gnashing of teeth was so bad that when I eventually defeated it, I took a screenshot of the "Adventure Complete" screen and used it as my PC Wallpaper as it felt like such a real achievement. Under the Frozen Earth soon took over as the "One more f**k**g Attempt" scenario...

 

Hang on, hang on. I gave you strategic solutions, but you're being defeatist about your own chances of implementing them. Let me be clear:

"Parry is good when it doesn't fail." - No kidding! But you feel a 5 in 6 chance of success isn't good enough? This is the best Block chance you will ever get in beta, period.

"If I bring all these defenses, where do I fit in attacks?" - This is a false problem. Blocks come on your Shields; Armor cards come on your Armor items, Helmets, and Boots. And Attacks? Attacks come on your Weapons (and, rarely, Boots). Card Hunter is designed well.

"I draw too many Move cards." - Okay, put fewer Move cards in your deck. I will play with default Move and, literally, one other simple Move card in the entire deck (per character). Ideally more, but you can still play like this just fine.

"I draw too many passive cards." - I don't know what "passive cards" are. Armor? Blocks? Congratulations, you're not going to die this round!

"Armor and Block rolls can fail." - No kidding! So why don't you stock up on Armor and Blocks with high chances of success? Parry is incredible. And if you don't like Thickened Mail, don't bring it: try Mail or Hardy Mail.

So, again, it sounds like the main issue is how disenchanted you've become about your own chances of winning. Here I've given you strategic ideas, and your responses are "well, no matter what I do, the randomness will make me fail." The entire point of deckbuilding is to make it so you'll get good stuff despite the randomness: meaning both that you minimize "unwanted cards," and that you be strategically prepared to USE all the good stuff when it comes.

Seriously, cheer up. You can do it. And if you find the game fun at all, then I really hope you succeed so you can get back to having fun.

 

I must admit, it doesn't sound like I have fun ...but I do, I like the game.

About the better cards ...yeah well it's those I am hunting, and I really
mean hunting(or searching) as 90% of the item drops I get from the
chests are useless (being items for selling, too low level, or just not an
item I can use).

Yeah that one sounded not very happy either, like a whiner...
...again I just would like to point out: I seem to come off whining or grumpy on text.
(Anyone for voice chatting? )

 

Well, if you didn't mean to sound like you were not enjoying, I was genuinely not enjoying it, for a little while. What really turned it around for me was a 4th adventurer, and reading about the economic model.

Part of the disconnect here is that you're obviously coming from a different place. When you say "put fewer move cards in your deck", you're clearly not playing from the same limited choices that I am. I don't have a human tactics card yet, so that's three move cards I can't do anything about yet, and boots add another one. At least I've filled my helmet slot, so that's three cloth armour I don't have to suffer through.

What makes the game harder at this specific point is that the slots grow faster than the equipment.

Now for solutions :

Gary did tell me I should re-do adventures, so I did. Once. Grudgingly. I saw the greyed-out "you'll get no xp for this" on the low-level adventures, and had to un-equip cards, and it really felt like a chore to have to do them again.

Then I grabbed a 4th character, and suddenly I was really enjoying the very different play-style, blasting through them and finding surprisingly useful new cards.

I haven't actually gotten back to the level that was frustrating me, but I'm having a blast again

To the devs: When Gary was explaining the extra characters, it sounded to me like I would have to delete one of my current party members to change my party composition. I wonder if you could have another look at the dialogue, or even consider having him hand-hold through getting a 4th and replaying a lower level adventure at some point, or at least add a hint.

 

Apparently can't give thumbs up, apart from like... which I am not sure is the same.
Which mean sI will do this instead: +1 ...any or both of Rorre's solutions would help.