League Suggestion thread

In chatting with Sir Civil, he asked if I would post on here to get some feedback and suggestions about the way leagues are currently scheduled and what we would like going forward. In the past we usually have had 2 Quick Draw leagues and the other two tended to be one pre-constructed league and one constructed (bring-your-own-build) league.

I think the idea behind having two Quick Draws scheduled was that new players can get into those leagues and are not at a disadvantage compared to veterans with all the best gear. Constructed leagues really do pose a barrier to entry for newer players who often get slaughtered when matched with veteran players with optimized builds full of legendary items. But maybe Quick Draw is just as hard for a new player who doesn't know all the cards, eh?

So let's talk about what we wish leagues were like, what we would like to see, etc. I will start with a few of my ideas:

• I'd like to see more Quick Draw leagues on different maps. I assume it would be pretty easy for KoU to create this type of league since it is just same QD, different map selection.
• I'd like to see more constructed (bring-your-own-build) leagues on new maps. These leagues can really be fun and make cards usable that would never see play in regular ranked PvP.
• I wish that the 3 Citadel leagues would either get retired or changed to give regular chests. Those would be Turret Tango, CPU, and Host (Quick Draw). I enjoy playing those three leagues, but Citadel is the least desirable set IMO, and the only set that has 3 leagues that give out only loot from that set. I think maybe one other league has set-specific loot: Artifact Anarchy? Also, why did Castle Mitternacht set not get any leagues with Mitternacht loot (THE BEST STUFF)?
  
• I'd be curious to test and see if it could be balanced and fun to have a constructed league where the characters were all level 9 or so instead of 18 like normal.
• I'd be curious to test and see if it could be balanced and fun to have a Quick Draw where you chose your opponent's cards for them instead of your own, then had to play with the hot mess you were given. Maybe for early April?

In the poll above you can vote for as many as you want, just so we can gauge interest. Please feel free to offer your own suggestions and ideas!

 

I'd like the time gap between one league finishing and the next starting to be removed.

 

I voted for some leagues to go away altogether, with my first target being Turret Tango. I get that it would have helped to introduce some new set mechanics when Citadel came out, but isn't required any longer given it is a total luck-draw contest.

 

Heck yeah, that would be so fun.
Jon and I used to discuss having leagues with other 'build constraints' (like all wiz constructed or peasant constructed) but we never ended up developing the code to make that happen. It'd be awesome if TKOU made some stuff in that vein IMHO

 

I don't like how every rotation has two QDs and those QDs always use the same map. Either the QDs shouldn't always occupy two slots, or preferably QD leagues should be consolidated so every game of QD draws randomly from a pool of maps. I wouldn't mind it just picking randomly from all regular MP maps, for example, it'd give more variety than having the same few maps over and over again. Alternatively, it could work like MP and have QDs selecting from a rotating set of four maps.

I can't think of any preconstructed leagues I want flat-out removed. I've seen Turret Tango already mentioned, but I find that map more fun to play than Artifact Chaos or the CoC league. Oozeball is also one I remember being very divisive, I think it's a great league while some hate it. I don't think there'll ever be a consensus on which preconstructed leagues are good or bad and I'd be more in favour of tweaking existing leagues rather than outright culling them.

On the topic of things KoU could change, I think the biggest one would be simultaneous drafting during QD. I'm not sure how feasible the coding would be, but anything that reduces the amount of time you're unable to do anything is good in my book. I wouldn't be opposed to something that forces a random draft if you don't draft within 10 seconds, because to me quick drafting should actually be quick, but I realize this is probably controversial.

The idea of special constructed leagues is a really cool one, the sky's the limit for such leagues, especially if it forces you to consider a really different meta. Level alterations, class and race restrictions, rarity restrictions, item set restrictions, a league where characters draw or retain more cards per round, maybe even a league where you play 4v4 instead of 3v3! These leagues can really get experimental because if it doesn't work then it can just be removed from the next rotation. These could be a fourth kind of league alongside regular constructed leagues, preconstructed leagues and QD leagues.

I also second having continuous leagues rather than gaps between leagues, regardless of whether this means leagues just last longer or we have more leagues per day.

And I do think a CM-themed league would be nice to have, it does feel like we're lacking one given all other expansions had their own themed leagues.

 

My 2 cents - I really like the quick draw, especially the Lost City. Sometimes I play the pre-constructed ones, with Monster Hunt being by far my favourite. However there are some pre-constructed leagues, which I think could be revamped/removed, like an already mentioned, Turrent Tango. I'd also limit the character selection in that CoC-themed one.
On the other hand there are the constructed leagues. I usually don't play them, because I feel like most of them are kinda gimmicky or they encourage a certain way of playing (like a Triple Duel). Setting some constraints may help, but it also can lead to an even less variety. Maybe banning certain items (which can be changed each time) would lead to some creative ideas?

 

Did someone say all wizards?

 

Yes, peasant leagues would be great! We could also use the restrictions from quests for more ideas (though 1HP is probably a bad idea). In fact, you wouldn't even need to do any coding for No Party Deaths: just remove the victory squares and set the goal to one star.

 

It's hard to enforce anything in 10 seconds when the game freezes for entire minutes every so often. Hopefully TKOU comes around to fix that for once.

Simultaneous drafting aside, I think it'd be interesting if the deck size and quality distribution of QD involved a bit of randomness, though still symmetric. It could give us idea what differently leveled MP matches is like, before actually introducing that.

 

Human wizards, maybe?
Come back, bro! We miss ya!

 

Whoooooo, I didn't think I'd write much. This turned into a tome. $8^ , You've been warned!

@Scarponi suggested awhile back a league where each team consists of a Human, an Elf, and a Dwarf, each with a deck of only one card: Walpurgis Night. I'm all for this. (Turns 1–6 of Round 1: Everybody gets 6 random Form cards and ends up on 1 of the 4 different Forms. Have at it! Round 3: At least one character, more likely four-ish?, will revert and draw WN. I don't know what kind of map this would need; I don't recall Scarponi ever discussing that part.)

Come to think of it, another neat thing could be (kinda like AI and their doppelgangers) playing the GMs' decks against each other. Fleshing this idea out right now, it could be, you go in, not knowing the decks you'll see. Once you get there, ah, cool, okay, you each have Gary's 1/1/1. Or, you each have "Amy's" elves. Melvin's dwarves would actually be interesting in that he doesn't always bring the same dwarves to the table! Perhaps we could finally see Cardotron3000's decks show Cardotron2000's decks what for, since Cardo3k has no idea what it's doing, ha ha ha. Anyway. On that last note, it could be neat to see any of the human GMs' decks mixed and matched (unless the power difference is way too great—clearly, Mom has better stuff than Gary, iirc) and the Cardo GMs' decks mixed and matched; or, to be safe, it could always be the same GM setup against itself. ~shrug~

Another "come to think of it"!!! Wouldn't it be nice to see a preconstructed league with somebody using lots of Acid and Hex without the other team having the normal amount of ranked movement? Of course, for all I know, the "Acid Geisha" now has Hex Of Dissolution, and I've missed out. (My ignorance of her deck: Not sure if I ever played the League of Chaos. I know I altogether stopped my infrequent Caverns of Chaos runs soon after the Pain "joke" left me far from laughing.) Anyway, I just know it's sad the CM expansion tried to ramp up Acid and ironically killed it (outside of basic armor removal).

The constraints system on constructed would be awesome. How many player-run tournaments had constraints resulting in everyone's pleasure?

Spoiler: QD

Quick Draw. Mm. Since there are different perspectives for different reasons, lemme go through my story to see how much it helps...

1. As a brand newbie, I found it useful to see the many, many cards I'd never seen before, but this also meant I was super extra slow because of needing to carefully read all three cards presented (×7×3) to me plus both discards from my opponent (×7×3), and my unfamiliarity with everything probably* didn't overcome my QD-advantage of having the same "items" available as all my opponents. (*I really don't recall.)
2. As a newbie starting to climb the ranked ranks, I probably* started doing better, although still losing to time way too often I'm sure. Yes, the dis/advantage QD is supposed to help balance against probably* helped, but long-timers are still going to know and anticipate better the synergies, the card nuances, the opponents' picks & actions & tells, etc. Being new to CH doesn't just mean small collection—it means new to QD, too—unless you're a long-timer with these kinds of games in general. (QD here probably helped me to "draft" for the first time in MTG Arena after all.) (Note that last probably didn't have an asterisk.) (*I still really don't recall.)
3. As I got into my more intermediate/mediocre phase, I guess I started doing better in QD. It was kinda fun. However, all the decisions and info I would pore over for minutes and hours in my Keeps to make something good once and not have to rehash repeatedly (little tweaks not necessarily included) ... now (with the greater CH knowledge and experience I'd picked up over time) had to stress over, mere seconds to minutes at a time, again and again and again, in one match even, let alone in one QD league, let alone multiple QDs in a day, in a week, in a month ... I'm starting to breathe heavily just writing that...
4. As I finally got to a point I'd call myself a good (didn't say great) player, I saw that I'd stopped playing QD already, and I was fine with that. Others wanna play? Cool. Half the month taken up with leagues I will almost** never, ever play? Disheartening. (**Oh, I remember this just fine. Like, I think I actually played 1–2 QD matches in 2019. It's cute now and then. Which, on that note, why was I even bothering to draft in MTG Arena? Because I got to keep the cards I drafted. Many times, I literally didn't even "build" to win. I just snatched up all the mythics and rares I could get my hands on—or at least the ones I thought I might care about at some point, ha... same with plenty of commons and uncommons that caught my eye, too, frankly. Oh, just recalled, also, important here, I could take as much time as I wanted.)

I don't like love QD. I understand if it needs to be 1 of 4 leagues every month, and I understand if so many people love it that it needs to stay 2 of 4 (although the poll says less QD so far...), but I'd be just fine if it were less than that (if I were playing again, lol, shut up. $:^ P Really, I'm on my way back, it's not just lip service, I have one particular major life obstacle to end any day now which I thought I was gonna finish a couple weeks ago! But anyway). Overall, I see very clearly why QD is supposed to be a fun and raumptious*** good time, but my personality type (and clinical OCD perfectionism which I do fight to resist) doesn't mesh well with it, and I'm not super gung ho in agreement (but not necessarily in disagreement either) that it's such a good thing for newbies, either. (***I just made up that word. Raucus? Rumpus? Scrumptious? Sumptuous? Yeah. ~nodnod~) "Quick Draw. Mm."

That said, I can't help but think, it could be nifty to see QD with some different rules now and then. Ha ha ha, like only Purple/Green and Black cards? I don't know. $X^ b Or of course, rarity or race/class onlies, stuff like that. I'm not sure if more randomized maps would bring me to it per se, but it does sound interesting for perhaps others' sakes. I might be more inclined to spectate, maybe, I don't know.

That said, we've all discussed for years that it'd be great to somehow overhaul the actual D part of QD to become Q. I get why we pick cards at the table; besides tech limits from building onto the infrastructure already in place, there's the fun of building with your opponent and the strategy of examining each other's classes and races (and map) before and while choosing cards, not to mention watching the discards and other potential tells for what kinds of hidden decisions are being made. The time limit during this phase is a necessary evil. Asynchronous deckbuilding phase is the obvious choice most people have touted in these discussions, but for years, the tech limits have said no; perhaps TKoU can make a difference here; even with that, though, we'll probably**** hear complaints from players who "have to wait all day" while a slower or newer opponent picks cards at double or more the length of time. (****I cannot recall this because it hasn't happened yet.)

[EDIT for clarity below: VP = victory point .. VS = victory square .. squares are not points .. you must control VSs or kill foes to receive VPs .. I do wish people didn't interchange the two and confuse things.]
What @Kalin said (while I was typing point 1 above) made me think, a constructed league with VPless respawns every turn, VPs only coming from capturing VSs, could be interesting, although as I type that, the balance of letting control builds have their heyday vs. (my preference at the moment of) somehow ensuring respawns don't get blocked, hmmmm... (Mind you, I enjoy the strategy of blocking the respawns on Smash the Jar. This league idea just feels to me like it should prevent that somehow.)

I like Turret Tango just fine. (However, I've also heard people remark how I play it a bit differently than others, too. ~shrug~) Sometimes you lose to luck. Card game. So much tactical mind-game play, though.
I love Ooze Ball. The biggest frustration I have there is that the rules of what constitutes Blocks activating or not can be mind-blowing to newbies who can constantly make "wrong" plays one would think should work but fail because they won't.

I don't understand why leagues generally have shorter time limits than ranked play. $:^ ( It's hard enough to keep under ranked limits—if you're not ex-cop playing your triple Sprint, Team! warriors, lol—but to try (in constructed) to tank a single VS with less time than normal? ~smh~ Call me Charlie Brown. I just don't get it. Actually, that might make QD less stressful, having extra time (ontop ranked normality, since we're on ranked boards, as opposed to league normality, ugh,) for the sake of building ontop actually playing with the new minidecks, but I guess the point is it's QD and less time is desired or something, right? $:^ `

One league change I've wanted to see for years is cosmetic at this point. Hence the desire for the change. "As a special introductory offer, you only have to pay gold!" Wow! $8^ D $F^ } Lol.

Ha ha ha, at the end of this post, I went to the top to write about leaguing with the GMs' characters. When I typed "Amy's," I just had to drop back down here (GOSUB in a GOSUB) to ask, hey, it's not exactly league-related, but maybe the mysterious Amy could finally reveal her true identity after all these years? $;^ ] ~chuckle~ I mean, we pretty much all figured out Player X a long time ago, unless we've barely played through the campaign at all. $F^ P (Tongues in cheeks aside, really now, it's odd to have a GM in Tournamentria without a story GM counterpart, and for a significant story GM (who, in-universe, enjoys competition,) to have no Tournamentria counterpart. Besides Farbs' unofficial guild/record website, is there any terrible harm that would come from renaming "Amy" into "Karen"?)

I guess that's it for now.
(That's all Ah have t' say about that.)

 

Wow. I bow to the tome, PKB.
Leagues are (or should be) less stressful for ranked players because they don't affect Elo.
I'm not really voting, because I generally just enter the league and go back to farming my accounts.
On the other hand, a level 39 league might be cool in that it would unleash more of the high powered items.
I, myself, might be more comfortable with a level 6 or 8 league, because I run multiple accounts through the quick campaign every day.
Free advice that's worth every penny.

 

I don't know how ambitious the Knights of Unity will be, but if they ever release a new set....

Something I have enjoyed in other games where new sets were released was drafting the new product at a new release party. For cardhunter, this would have to be a sort of league where your entry fee would have to be pizza. You would then receive chests that you could open with the new items in them, using whatever you get to build a constructed team to then play in the league. The trick would be to have a temporary keep from which to build with only these new items, which would transfer to your real keep at the end of the league. So it would be like spending pizza to buy chests, except you would use the contents of those chests for that league. In my experience in other games it has been a fun way to see the new set for the first time and acquire some of it. There are some unanswered questions like how many chests does it take to field a decent team with all the item slots full (assume you can access your normal chars, but seems like you'd likely have to field a lot of 1/1/1's due to not having enough items from a few chests). Another issue would be time limit on cracking new chests and building teams for tourney ahead of event. Still, maybe this idea could be workable for cardhunter somehow.

 

So, about possible new leagues..
I was thinking of a combination of Entropy Wars and Quick Draw. Where you get to pick mobs instead of cards. For example you get 3 choices looking something like this.
(1Dragon/8Goblins/4Trogs)(1 Ice Skeleton/7Oozes/3Orcs)(1Troll/9Imps/3Gnarls)

 

I think a Co-op PvE League would be a nice change of pace.

It should probably have a large number of possible stars to be achieved so that
both people on a team can win most of the time (mostly because losing due to a
bungling partner is bummer,) but a large number of possible-stars where it's
hard to get all of them should help break ties among winners.

That might lead to "too many Epic Chests" for the one-win each (if you think
"too many Epic Chests" is a bad thing) but the reward structure for that league
could be altered. If most people who play get a win (with a varying number of
stars) there would be roughly twice as many winners as usual (more if the format
i popular) and therefore less pods with only one winner.

Just an idea that came to me a few minutes ago.

 

I think the idea of two Quick-draws might have been so that new players were less likely to be PERCEIVED to be at a greater disadvantage.
I think that in practice, Quickdraw requires a lot of skill and therefore very much favors skilled veteran players.

It might have also been so that people who wanted to play something other than PvE or Ranked
could have a format that started up every 10 hours through all the rotations. Despite the RNG
factor, it may be the most versatle and resilent format with respect to "skill matters" in the
long run, and the games tend to not feel like repeats.

But I think several of the non-Quickdraw Fixed deck formats are more new-user-friendly because
playing Quick Draw well does in fact take a lot of skill and practice.

 

Of course, but you'd be surprised at how many "pros" when it comes to ranked pvp are not very good at Quick Draw at all! I still contend it is better for a newer player to have to face a 1600ish player in QD than face same player in ranked. It turns out playing regularly with the best toys (a la Batman) does not prepare you for stringing something together out of a pile of sub-optimal cards (a la MacGyver).

 

It's the window of opportunity to enter Leagues that effects me much more than how many hours a day leagues are active.

I don't think I mind the League not always being active as much as I mind that most of the time you can't enter any league.

I don't run my life by the clock, and have a lot of trouble keeping track of time. In practice, I do much less league play than
I would if window of opportunity is great. I tend to leave Cardhunter open, but when I actually look at the Multiplayer
screen, the vast majority of the time there isn't a League to enter, and so I don't.

I haven't (yet) given much thought to a solution. As with most suggestions, I can think of problems with most of the
simple alternatives I can think of.

But a short audible alert on the Steam version when a new league opens for entry might be really nice to warn me since
I do in fact have it open most of the time. (The web version is usually muted on my browser(s) when not in the foreground.)

A second alert when there's, say, only 30 minutes left to enter might be good too.

 

There needs to be tie breaker credit given for games played even if lost. Why play a match when doing nothing is the exact same as playing 4 matches against experienced players and losing. More beginners would actually play if actually trying had a purpose. I know I'm not any good yet but throw some newbs a bone. If not we can just keep paying the 50g and ignoring gameplay all together