TL;DR - I just beat it with level 15 chars using only gear picked up along the way Background I've heard so many people say this game is grindy, including an offline friend of mine. I always found this weird. When I first played, I just suited up my role-playing party as "they" saw fit, including equipping no Unholy cards on my priest, Solstice, not realizing just how much of an extra challenge that even was. (Blue Manchu, you sure do have a lot more love for Unholy card items, ha ha ha.) Hand of Melvelous? sold for 100g. (Don't worry, I bought it back weeks later once I found multiplayer could actually be an enjoyable experience instead of a cesspool to avoid.) Only once I started dealing with Oozes and Skeletons did I actually start swapping my equipment out to match the levels more. Also, only once I hit around level 8-10 did I figure, man, this game is so balanced to just play for fun through the campaign with Gary and company, I .. I expect Blue Manchu might've actually somehow figured out how to make multiplayer balanced, too. Huh. And so I tried it. And so I stayed. $¦^ ] Point being, it wasn't until halfway through the campaign that I started getting multiplayer rewards -- and even then, I couldn't beat Gary for several days because of that dreaded 20 minute timer. Lol. $E^ b It was also then that I started being involved in World Chat -- since I could see the community was enjoyable, too, hey hey. Different kind of game, different kind of crowd, methinks. Anyway, I soon heard Elf Wizards are bad. (I eventually proved that wrong along with others. Yay. And that was before CM.) I also soon heard the campaign is hard and grindy. I've continued to hear that for a year and a half. Inspiration Recently, I finally got around to levelling up some characters (so that I would have more to choose from in co-op). Classic Starter, dwarf warrior, elf wizard, human priest. I used all my current inventory. Played every level. For awhile. It was so easy, (elf wizards are bad! ha ha ha ha) I experimented with Ancient Grudge and Vampire Form and other fun stuff. Went full radiation on Monkeys, which is hilarious. Lol. (That includes Yod's x3 and Beginner Corruption.) It was so easy, it started feeling a little chore-like, thus I started skipping a bunch of adventures; I mean, y'know, not like I needed all the extra loot from a full playthrough, and the goal was just to level in the first place anyway. Limitation After that party challenged the free Citadel adventure -- yes, my elf wiz rocked the house -- I said to myself, next time I level some chars, (and I still have more level 1s and 4s and whatnot,) I'll go two levels higher each time since I hear you can gain a level each time that way. And hey, just to challenge myself, I'll do a plainclothes run, too: I'll keep a text file open for all the gear they earn along the way, and use only it. You know what? Why don't I just do it now? Elf warrior, human wizard, dwarf priest. I didn't bother keeping tabs of treasures to sell and items I could therefore "buy" etc.; I only used looted items. (Aww, this meant I skipped The Wizard's Workshop. There's just something really special and fun about that menial adventure, lol. But, level 1 chars means begin at a level 3 adventure.) The Journey The first adventure felt a little trolly. Got a Mind-Leaking Pewter Amulet first thing, along with a Martial Skill I wouldn't be able to use for awhile. Lol. (Don't worry, I used Pewter Amulet. You just have to not-get-hit is all.) Then, Dull Buckler, Defensive Helm, and Eagle Bowl. Witw. In the first several adventures, Bare Arms will block more than Dull Buckler. $8^ , Still, Long Axe Of Retribution was my go-to nearly every time from here on out. The next adventure rewarded a lot better. Soothing Relic for group heal, Trainee's Cap for magic, Hunting Boots um one Move Point up from Adventuring Boots ha, Crude Polearm I couldn't use yet bc , Versatile Staff yay, Untrained Pyromancy for some sweet cycling, and Cleansing Mirror sure why not. It might've been this adventure I died once and remembered, oh yeah, characters start with some gear, thus I allowed for Adventuring Boots, Blunt Sword, and Beginner's Staff. (I forgot what priests bring and didn't care enough to go research it.) The third adventure gave me Carved Club and four other items, none of which I could use yet. (A Human Skill and three Martials.) But! Between Sharp Slicing and Novice Crushing, I had good stuff for later. In the fourth, I got Plate Mail. Oh, sweet Plate Mail. I never took it off for the rest of the game. (Meanwhile, I would have to wait five whole adventures later for my dwarf priest to wear anything but a Cloth Vest.) The fifth -- level 7 Troglodytes everywhere, and eventually Trog Wizards -- appropriately hid a Magician's Hat amongst the rubble. Yay! Smoke Bomb and Minor Illusion for my underpowered party against a room full of wizards! Awesome! $E^ D In the sixth, I finally got two more shields -- Coward's Shield (which was still better than Dull Buckler in many places) and, oh yes, Cherry Shield which my priest carried for the rest of the game. I also received a second Crude Polearm and a Singing Glaive. Fine, fine items. The Glaive is powerful for these poor folks, and two Polearms really helped with focus later -- like against Zombies later. Since this was storming Melvelous' castle, I decided (a few battles later) I should receive Hand Of Melvelous while I'm at it. Seventh, some nice stuff including Subterranean Ferocity and Tough Charger which I swapped back and forth when needed. Apprentice Sparking, Stone Of The Blank Mind, and Corrupted Feystaff all found uses at times, too. Eighth. Yay, Inspirational Mail. Yay, Fool's Coif (because no decent blocks on my warrior remember). Yaaay, Healthy Gumshoes; my human wizard made room for these asap. Ninth, bunch of good stuff, actually, but I really felt the crunch of my low levels since I couldn't really spare the tokens for it all. (Yet.) Tenth, I finally got an Elf Skill! -- and Insight was a pretty awesome one to find and felt a lot better than Walk x3, ha ha ha ha. The Hexcoco Boots went to my dwarf priest. I also got a Sapphire Warstaff which was great against range 1 melee groups like gnomes. Eleventh, got another Insight. $F^ , Thanks, game. Lol. But! But! I found Survivor's Robes! My elf warrior nabbed the Healthy Gumshoes, and my human wiz went for the new robes. Quick detour: What's fascinating here is that I seem to have been so excited about one set of robes I'd gotten earlier, that I never even wrote it down. See, Randimar was offering me Hawkwind's Moccasins and Hylithia's Robes (each I have one of already) along with a couple other things, but I really didn't have the gold. Then, on the weekend itself, about as soon as my wiz had any minor tokens to spend, I won Hylithia's!! With my low-level party! Thus they could use it! ha ha ha ha However, Investigate seemed more useful for my limited setup, thus after I eventually felt my elf could spare a token on the boots, I swapped the robes. (Not to mention, situationally better armor.) My priest was becoming less of a team healer over time, in part due to all this. While on the detour, one more note: I looked up CH ranked battles on YouTube just to watch, and I found @Stexe's beginner playthrough and tips; overall, good stuff, but it also hit me, there are a couple more items I'd guaranteed get if I'd played through from the beginning. I studied the vid and added Kobold Killer, Woodsman's Axe x2, Beginner's Staff #2, Orzo's Excellent Wand (woot!), Golem Cleaver ("if you have it," indeed), Zapping Headband, Rusty Shield (which clearly I found useful, ~sigh~), and Blessed Demon Claw (also useful!). Twelfth. Akon's Amulet! I knew I'd use this eventually... (Too bad I didn't have it for this adventure. I'd chosen Return to the Astral Shrine! $E^ J Good times, good times...) Thirteenth. Lesser Furnace Staff, good, good. Energetic Heirloom Shield! Yay, a decent shield for my warrior finally! lol (But you know what? To the end of the game, she never did gain 8 HP on the block. Ha.) Lucky Toughness!!!! Does that common item need more exclamation marks? Maybe!!!! Fourteenth. Oak Staff #2. Thanks, game. (Can't use both.) (lol) I'd used Pulsing Staff x2 a whole lot, though. Shocking Skull! Looks great for a big, scary dragon.. $;^ }
Challenging the Dragon Fifteenth and final. It was right about here that I decided I'd post what I'd been up to. (Hence no real documentation throughout, and even this is from-memory-only.) I had a hard time with the Ogres. I'd hoped to necromance one, but I never drew the Spark Of Undeath. In fact, at round 7, only my warrior remained -- in the red at that. My wizard went down very sadly; I'd Accelerated his Thought, and then (same round) he used Run, Run, a Move 1 card, and I think finally his Investigate, but OH WOW that one Ogre had it in for him!! Walks and Muscle Throughs and caught up to him. I shan't describe the carnage that ensued. Priest eventually ran out of blocks and also got trampled. So. Two Ogres left, albeit one at low health. ~nod~ About 10 rounds later, including floating at 1 HP for a few rounds, (Eagleland would say she had Guts!) my warrior finally felled the final fell warrior. My party searched the great corpses and found a Lifedrinker Tome (uh-oh, looks good, especially for the dragon, but that ...) and a Brilliant Shroud. Hey hey! Donning that Shroud for now... Sparklers. *pssh* Between Memory Lossing their Teleports, Martyring my wiz in their plain view, and Arcane Linear/Insight sapping their blocks, they went down in 6-7 rounds. Searching the rubble turned up a Draining Console which looked cool, but not for this party at this point. All the chief guards! I actually got a bit concerned a few points during this battle, but Ring Of Smoke and the Hat came through for me, along with Bashes, Stabs, Lucky Toughness, etc. Killed the Sparklers by herding them then Linearing them repeatedly. $}^ } Very nice, ha ha ha, lol. The Ogres and we danced around a lot longer. Again, about 6-7 rounds total. Crescent Shield (nice) and Vial of Ectoplasm ( $F^ | ) among the carcasses -- but I already had what seemed a better shield. The dragon. This was my party. Spoiler [SRC] Inj'rie Level 15 Elf Warrior Weighted Shortsword Singing Glaive Golem Cleaver Plate Mail Energetic Heirloom Shield Fool's Coif Healthy Gumshoes Insight Advanced Gouging (one overspent token)1 x Mail 1 x Quick Reactions 1 x Investigate 1 x Hardy Mail 3 x Stab 1 x Thick Hide Armor 2 x Able Stab 1 x Pushback Parry 3 x Penetrating Cut 2 x Predictable Stab 1 x Absorbing Block 1 x Healing Dash 1 x Vicious Thrust 1 x Lunging Hack 2 x Potent Stab 3 x Puncturing Stab 1 x Able Bludgeon 1 x Impaler 1 x Lucky Charm 1 x Skip 2 x Elvish Insight 2 x Trained Bludgeon 1 x Lifesaving Block 1 x Obvious Maneuver 1 x Thickened Mail [SRC] Khan Fusion Level 15 Human Wizard Oak Staff Lesser Furnace Staff Stone Of Searing Memories Akon's Amulet Stone Of The Blank Mind Orzo's Excellent Wand Survivor's Robes Tan Boots Untrained Command Battery 1 x Investigate 2 x Fire Spray 1 x Big Zap 1 x Spark Inductor 1 x Telekinesis 1 x Burning Fingers 3 x Memory Loss 1 x Arcane Curse 1 x Thick Hide Armor 2 x Boiling Armor 1 x Flimsy Block 2 x Surging Blast 1 x Acid Leak 1 x Resistant Hide 1 x Lunging Hack 3 x Arcane Beam 1 x Little Zap 4 x Sizzling Bolt 1 x Bungled Bolt 1 x Shuffle, Team! 1 x Attack, Soldier! 2 x Dissolve Armor 1 x Ember Spray 1 x Run 1 x Quick Run [SRC] Incense Level 15 Dwarf Priest Recoiling Mace Long Axe Of Retribution Inspirational Mail Cherry Shield Hexcoco Boots Shocking Skull Blessed Demon Claw Hand Of Melvelous Lucky Toughness Advanced Healer 1 x Mail 2 x Bash 1 x Wounded Block 1 x Healing Spirit 1 x Simple Bash 1 x Consuming Spear 1 x Healing Pulse 3 x Minor Heal 1 x Heal 1 x Quickness Aura 2 x Parry 1 x Unholy Frenzy 1 x Purge 3 x Reaching Swing 2 x Inspiration 3 x Righteous Frenzy 1 x Toughness 1 x Talented Healer 1 x Unreliable Block 2 x Spear Of Darkness 1 x Defender's Block 1 x Lucky Charm 1 x Accelerated Thought 1 x Spark Of Undeath 2 x Run Not very pretty, eh? I spent 6-7 rounds in a brutal battle with one Corrosive Breath slaying my wiz and priest at one point. My warrior held out as best she could, she really did. But, without the rest of the team, she just couldn't make it. The dragon had less than 10 HP, but he survived. We bandaged our wounds and regrouped. We considered changing our equipment -- but said, no, this is what we have, this is solid. Let's go. Round 1, double Rockfall. ~sigh~ Nevertheless. We. All. Pulled. Through. Level 15, one major token each, (one not even spent fully,) and very little gear to pick from. (I never even drew Acid Leak nor Spark Of Undeath. Ha.) From the part of the treasure pile that did not melt and corrode under the dragon's outpouring, I found Superb Healer, Laser Blunderbuss, Whiterune Staff, and a Large Topaz. $:^ P Yes, Investigate helps a lot. Hooray for CM. Nevertheless, I was always two levels behind, frequently missing gear (or tokens) to fill slots, and I still never hit Game Over, pay 15g. Yes, I have a year and a half experience. Need I repeat my self-imposed handicaps? My point: playing every level as intended, getting all the gear one can, all the experience one can, accessing the shops while renown rises, and even -- if need be -- having World Chat to ask for help (because, despite Gary's basement setting, the Internet does exist now), a beginner absolutely can get through the Campaign, and there should not be any horrendous grind at all. This doesn't even take into account Loot Fairy blessings, Mauve Manticores, and ranked/league multiplayer rewards. Campaign is not grindy. Regards, Bob $¦^ J Spoiler: P.S. My Inventory Notes Code: war wiz pri mix Adventuring Boots + #2 + #3 B Blunt Sword W Woodsman's Axe + #2 W Kobold Killer W Beginner's Staff + #2 St Orzo's Excellent Wand AI Golem Cleaver W Zapping Headband AI Rusty Shield Sh Blessed Demon Claw DI Melvelous (8): Hand of Melvelous DI Untrained Chopping MS Pewter Amulet AI Dull Buckler Sh Defensive Helm H Eagle Bowl DI Red Robes R Long Axe of Retribution DW Lightfoot Cloak R Soothing Relic DI Trainee's Cap H Hunting Boots B Crude Polearm W- Versatile Staff St Untrained Pyromancy AS Cleansing Mirror DI Carved Club W Untrained Command HS Untrained Bashing MS Sharp Slicing MS Novice Crushing MS Plate Mail HA Novice Rifthopping AS Glimmer Boots B Inquisitor's Morningstar DW- Delicate Dervish MS Stone of Searing Memories AI Magician's Hat AI Stilleto W Holy Axe DW- Novice Medic DiS Apprentice Guidance HS Unstable Feystaff St Pious Cleansing DiS Crude Polearm #2 W- Singing Glaive W-- Displacing Staff St- Stocking Boots B- Coward's Shield Sh Rickety Polearm W Cherry Shield Sh- Apprentice Sparking AS Subterranean Ferocity DwS Tough Charger DwS Stone of the Blank Mind AI- Swift Attacker MS- Corrupted Feystaff St- Orange Amulet AI- Battery AS Inspirational Mail DA- Apprentice Medic DiS- Pulsing Staff St-- Healthy Gumshoes B- Apprentice Gouging MS- Hardened Hide Armor HA- Crown of Thorns H- Beginner Command HS- Fool's Coif H Repelling Flail DW-- Weighted Shortsword W-- Flawed Healing Ring DI- Pulsing Staff #2 St-- Recoiling Mace DW-- Grey Leather Boots B- Burnished Blade W-- Insight ES- Panther Staff St-- Hexcoco Boots B- Arcing Electromancy AS- Trained Bashing MS- Ring of Smoke AI- Trained Ferocity DwS- Greenstone Pendant AI- Yellowstone Pendant AI- Sapphire Warstaff St-- Ballet Shoes B- Survivor's Robes R- Hefty Chopper W-- Elemental Diadem AI- Insight #2 ES- Robes of Avoidance R- Oak Staff St+- Trained Footwork ES- Armor of Tlacoa DA- Trained Bashing #2 MS- Advanced Sparking AS- Advanced Gouging MS- Tan Boots B- Akon's Amulet AI- Advanced Healer DiS- Balanced Rapier W+- Bluestone Pendant AI- Lesser Furnace Staff St-- Advanced Bashing MS- Energetic Heirloom Shield Sh- Lucky Toughness DwS- Bluestone Pendant #2 AI- Trained Insight ES- Lead-Pommeled Sword W+- Charging Battler DwS- Oak Staff #2 St+- Caustic Robe R- Shocking Skull DI+ Superb Command HS- Lifedrinker Tome DI+ Brilliant Shroud DA+ Draining Console DI+ Crescent Shield Sh+ Vial of Ectoplasm AI- Superb Healer DI+ Laser Blunderbuss St++ Whiterune Staff St++ Yeah, I see now that I could've put ewar, hwiz, dpri at the top and put the chars' racial skills in their same columns, but w/e, heheh.
Is that a challenge to the penniless peasants? If so please fill it out either in response to this or in the that thread.
Technically part of an expansion and not the campaign proper, I didn't bother to run that party (who turned only turned level 16 after the dragon) there. If you want, though, I can see how they fare there. I expect great difficulty with such low-level and unspecialized gear, but I'll also let them acquire each of the items that Melvin gives you at that point, too. Don't know when I'll do it. Maybe this week, maybe not. (Haven't been feeling too well lately.)
Dhildan Level 18 Elf Warrior Bejeweled Shortsword Itotia Blade Raxcotl's Hammer Vibrant Plate Aegis Of The Defender Sergeant's Cap Heavy Hide Boots Cautious Mobility Novice Impaling 1 x Dancing Cut 2 x Impaler 2 x Defender's Block 1 x Healing Dash 1 x Powerful Bludgeon 1 x Puncturing Stab 2 x Shuffle, Team! 1 x Weak Chop 1 x Thick Hide Armor 4 x Feinting Strike 1 x Scouting Run 1 x Bloodied Block 1 x Reliable Hide Armor 1 x Able Bludgeon 2 x Vicious Thrust 1 x Weakened Armor 3 x Powerful Hack 1 x Shimmering Aura 2 x Shifty Stab 2 x Dynamic Armor 1 x Penetrating Cut 2 x Strong Bludgeon 2 x Elven Maneuvers Rutzhirn Level 18 Dwarf Wizard Stormstaff Sulphuric Staff Wand Of Seared Air Armorbane Pendant Sensate's Ring Burning Bangle Scarlet Robes Marshall's Boots Beginner Toughness Focused Electromancy 2 x Arcing Spark 1 x Lunging Thrust 2 x Mighty Spark 1 x Team Shift 5 x Dissolve Armor 1 x Combustible 1 x Acid Spray 1 x Winds Of War 1 x Little Zap 1 x Wall Of Fire 3 x Hot Spot 1 x Mail 2 x Powerful Spark 3 x Spark Generator 1 x Ember Spray 1 x Arcane Aura 1 x Parry 1 x Weakened Armor 1 x Sorcerous Bolt 1 x Squeamish 1 x Reliable Hide Armor 2 x Gusts Of War 1 x Memory Loss 1 x Dash Arrtelfield Level 18 Human Priest Nimbus Blade St. Forgue's Sword Ritual Straps Buckler Of Protection Zachary's Boots Medallion Of St. Vigus Purging Charm Tome Of The Martyr Novice Guidance Trained Cleansing 2 x Lifesaving Block 2 x Purge 1 x Consuming Spear 1 x Fiery Stab 1 x Lunging Strike 1 x Vulnerable 1 x Attack, Soldier! 2 x Purging Burst 1 x Holy Presence 2 x Violent Spin 1 x Weakened Armor 4 x Impenetrable Nimbus 1 x Polearm Slash 1 x Reaching Swing 1 x Toughened Hide Strips 1 x Healing Blessing 1 x Defender's Block 1 x Unholy Frenzy 2 x Invigorating Touch 1 x Strong Bash 1 x Jarring Block 1 x Jump, Soldier! 1 x Inspiration 1 x Demonic Power 1 x Mind Worm 1 x Enervating Touch 2 x Martyr Blessing All free characters and items from reaching the first level in that expansion.
Sweet! Thank you! (Now I feel like there's a definite push for me to try this. Lol! We'll see now that those decks are in my face, lol.) P.S. I'm quite sure I got my first Aegis of the Defender only after reaching that point in Campaign the first time, ha ha ha ha.
I'm not sure I'd say grindy either, but can be frustrating at times. The side maps, like some from mauve manticore (some took me 30+ attempts due to needing specific selection of cards to have a chance to win). I'd say the hardest though are the caverns and troll tyrant (which I haven't been able to beat yet).
After the last reset of my resettable account, I still took 3 days before attempting Yellow Dragon. (I'd tried and failed on a couple of nudie run attempts, but this reset was extremely loot poor.) Maybe I'm just too worried, because I made it through at level 13 max with no retries. (I don't buy retries, even on quests anymore. Which is probably why I don't have 1hp's above level 7.) Anyway, thanks for this thread! (But, to be honest, I do love grinding.)
Playing all this co-op lately, I believe I can see why many people do find the campaign grindy. I pass. Partner has multiple melee attacks in hand, able to kill multiple imps/sprites. Partner passes. Gary hits us. I pass. I have ranged attacks of my own, but surely, partner just didn't notice what happened there. Happens to us all. Partner passes. Gary hits us. Not, "Partner runs away while carrying multiple blocks and armor in hand, leaving the elf wizard with Unstable Bolt at range 1 of a flood of creatures." No. Partner passes after I pass so that we do nothing when we could do something. Letting the monsters do something instead of causing them to no longer be there to do anything. Risking the GM passing and discarding our good hands. ~exhale~ Also, partner runs away while carrying multiple blocks and armor in hand, leaving the elf wizard with Unstable Bolt at range 1 of a flood of creatures. However, that's rather irrelevant here due to the wearing of co-op blinders being an aside. This topic is about the campaign being grindy or not. Partner is at range 1 of the worst Trog of the bunch. Has a range 1 Zombie card to finish it. Partner instead Shuffles to range 2 of said Trog. Gets stabbed in the back, almost dies. I advise.* Partner Shuffles back to range 1. Amazingly, Gary left all tokens in place. Partner kills Trog. I was glad this partner decided to take another's words into consideration, but I was also afraid that burning another Shuffle (into range/los of two Trog stabbers and a Trog magicker) was going to end badly, lol. EDIT: *Fwiw, I only advised that the Zombie attack could've killed. Partner agreed. Good stuff. Partner then took it upon oneself to Shuffle back, heeheeheehee. "All right! Let's see where this goes," I simultaneously chuckle and grimmace to myself. $X^ b Again, nice that it worked out, but not working out is what might cause many to feel the campaign is grindy, I'm now guessing. Partner is at 1 range to 2 monsters. I have ranged line of sight to both as well. Partner has 1 attack, low damage. I have 1 attack, high damage. Partner could kill low-HP monster, leaving me high-HP monster. Partner instead opts to hit high-HP monster. Now, I need to make the unfortunate decision to lob my 9 damage at range 6 on a 2–3 HP monster or to save it for a more efficient hit. (Logic and situation say I lob now.) Either way, we now still have another monster that could've been dead. I came here to post because my eyes have been opened, and other than acknowledging this side of the playerbase, I unfortunately don't know what to do about this, if anything is doable at all. Conclusion: Campaign is probably very grindy to people who don't pay attention to the options available. Repeatedly. In different battles. After hints. After explicit instructions. Campaign is probably very grindy to people who, when advised on how to avoid attacks seen already within the battle, will not heed advice and instead allow the GMs to needlessly step all over them.
@Gnomzer recently typed up in Discord the "new player experience" of starting a new account—using shops and spending Gary's costume pizza on Melvin's Club recommendation instead but also metagaming the party with three dwarves—and likewise found that Campaign Is Not Grindy. Lots of Bejeweled Shortswords. $;^ ]
