[Suggestion] Reduce Elven Maneuvers to Duration 2

The title says it all, really. Elven Maneuvers is the strongest racial trait available for elves (barring some uses of slippery for some elves), and reducing its duration from three to two would have a similar effect as the change to Mass Frenzy; reducing it from dominant to playable but not overpowering. Duration 3 is far too long for any beneficial trait of this quality, especially one that allows card draw, ESPECIALLY one that allows card draw of powerful attacks like Nimble Strike or Laser Thrust.

 

I've often wondered if you couldn't "fix" it by changing it to just add a dash card in your hand when damaged instead of drawing and discarding until you get a move card. I mean, the big part of the "problem" is that it often lets the elf in question retaliate to every attack with a vicious thrust or nimble strike, right? So make it give you moves and only moves.

 

I think it giving step attacks is a huge part of what makes elves an interesting deckbuilding choice.

Agreed. But also if you search the forums you'll find this topic discussed to death and I think I'm on the record saying I intend to at least reduce duration to 2, possibly nerf it even harder somehow (reduce the depth of the card search is an option). We haven't had a good time to do a major balancing revision in recent months but when it happens EM will be hit. No need to keep posting new threads about it!

 

I favor this (stop after 3, max 4 cards). Another angle of the problem is Cautious Mobility, i find myself thinking there shouldn't be a skill offering two maneuvers, let alone a tokenless one. So either adjust the third card so minor token cost is justified or take double maneuver skills out alltogether. And before you wimp out with the old "can't go and touch existing items coz outcry" excuse, cautious mobility is so easy to come by, its not like you step on anyones toes who can claim he had an hard time to akquire it.

 

The best time to do a balance revision is yesterday. Obviously.

 

As much as I appreciate an incoming nerf to maneuver, I think it is the ONLY reason why elf warriors are played.

If the card "elven maneuver" or the item "cautious mobility" is hit too hard, we will see only dwarf warriors soon (which are already quite popular). Following, dwarfs need a nerf. I do not think following this "nerf spirale" is a good way (since players tend to hate nerfs). Alternatively, buff human warriors??

Besides, if a nerf is needed, I have to agree with Robauke: Make Cautious mobility cost a token or remove one copy and keep it tokenless.

 

dwarves always needed a nerf. Maneuvers was the awkward way out of doing what needed to be done.

 

See and once again no one even considers Human Warriors...
I don't know why I like playing them... okay maybe I do.
Dwarves irritate me when they can't get into battle until round 3 and elves just annoy me, ok fine it annoys me that Elven warriors have the same number of HPs as D-Wiz.
Shockingly I didn't submit a tokenless Human Skill in for Alzoyal's approval because there wasn't a Monster card I felt made sense, but there still needs to be a tokenless 2 trait human skill, even if the trait is lame.

Oh wait we were talking about Elven Maneuvers... my $.02 leave duration as is but have it discard after draw. Much more appropriate for a low level card and wouldn't require revamping all the items with it to properly level it. I know the issue has been looked at but Inspiration is a Silver, single draw and Martyr Blessing is a silver duration 2 AND doesn't have the benefit of being a trait and cannot self target.

Jeez that's it I am making a 2 Dwarf Warrior 1 Human Priest build like I should have all along with LOTS of Martyr Blessings since it is probably still underrated (no it's not leave it alone).

 

I think that would hit maneuver a bit too hard.
What about reducing its duration by one for each successful card draw (similiar to force field)?!?

 

If you're not packing some trait purge at this point on your warriors or priests then you're not doing it right. Too many nasty nasty attachments these days to not come prepared.

 

I hate Elven Maneuvers. I think the card text should say exactly what the card does. And it should be silver+ or gold.
So, to prove how OP it is, I'll use it and abuse it. (same with Nimbus)
"If you can't beat them, join them"

This game is getting less friendly to noobs... maybe Devs want this way: unbalanced.
As Flax always answer: "it's not broken, it's not a bug... it's working as intended".

 

Which Flax are you referring to?

 

i only disagree because, again, like people are saying, dwarves are already dominant warriors and as elf warriors have much lower hp, need elven maneuvers to be competitive. Without the benefit of elven maneuver, I'd much rather go dwarf. Of course, how exactly a elven maneuver nerf will affect the competitive game, I don't know.

 

Sorry to say, but that's a very unfavorable approach.
Let me explain:
For two rounds, it'd still be just as overpowered on warriors, and just as damning on casters. But it dropping off so quickly means it becomes more unreliable, meaning the builds in question become less dependable, and thus less desirable and fun.
In other words, rather than balance the build, you've ended up creating a rather extreme paradigm.

No, it's been mentioned before, and I still think it's the best idea, to reduce the draw count, rather than the duration.
By making the draw count smaller, you have to build more with step cards in mind, meaning you can't slot as many powerful attacks alongside. That means inherently balancing the build.
[Ie, you can't just rely on Bejeweled's 7 damage steps, since those become harder to draw, so you end up considering 4 damage step card items more.]
By making the draw count smaller, casters no longer end up losing their best attack cards/etc, for far more moves than they're likely to need.

Really seems the better approach.

 

Personally I still think for its card value (Bronze) it should be a limit of 1 draw. At duration 3 it is overpowered in the card advantage it can give.
Someone suggested make it like Force Field, which is a nice mid ground, but then I would recommend it down to a duration of 2, so it will at most draw 2 cards.
What (I think) should have happened it that this should be a Silver trait on par with Talented Healer. But then even that wouldn't be a big deal if Scouting Run wasn't a Bronze (-) allowing for cautious mobility to be a 0 token item. I understand that due to the fact that it is an attack it changes the ability to use it freely, but still don't see how it is considered less powerful than a Run. This makes a hybrid of the OP of Perfect Toughness and Raging Battler/Apprentice Ferocity, Perfect Toughness has 2 copies of a card that should (in my opinion) be limited to 1 per character and puts it on an easy to get item, but it mixes the 0 token 2 valuable Warrior traits, which is why I probably see 50% of my opponents with 2 or more Elf Warriors.

For a comparison of cards that allow for draws:
At the bottom is Demonic Feedback paper card 1 draw high price (4 life).
At the Bronze level you have Parry, which is great at being a melee block (and probably should be a roll 3+ but I think any change to such a standard card might break the game) single draw with trigger. Subtle Parry conditional trigger single draw. Lifesaving Block, trigger and draw. Cleansing Ray is a conditional draw.
The only Bronze card with the potential for multiple draws is Altruism, which requires a specific type of card to be used and a roll... and maybe that is the third idea for a nerf, as opposed to or in addition to other ideas (limit draw, reduce duration) add a roll to it.

Everything else with a card draw (as far as I can remember) is Silver or Better.

Now I know that it is a limited card draw in that it only draws move cards. But for a warrior and let's face it this is about warriors, the ability to get a step attack is very valuable and even an additional move card is valuable when you are being attacked. I know with the 6 card limit sometimes you don't get a draw but largely I would say I see a success rate of at least 75% and more likely closer to 90%.

I know if I liked to play Elf Warriors I would be pushing for their best value card to stay a OP, but it is really not a matter of if, but how and when.

 

Just so we're clear, Elf Warriors are the least common thing I play
Heck, I play cold wizards more than them.

Again, it's not about supporting or countering OP element, it's about maintaining a balance.
You can't directly substitute card draw changes for duration changes, balance doesn't work simply like that.
In this case, card draw changes are preferable to duration changes.
And yes, people tend to prefer a switch to draw 1, duration 3.

Though, everything else aside, there's a flaw in your argument-
You assume all cards are balanced [to their quality], when they're clearly not.

It could be intentional that Elven Maneuvers is above average in quality, much like several other elven racial cards are, to balance Elves to perceived advantages humans have.
Point being, balance isn't a simple thing, and you can't just chop at random parts of a card to make it more functional.

As I noted before, cutting duration without cutting draw, would still keep the card as being OP- just for a shorter, and thus more erratic span.
That's not favorable to ANYONE, people using elven maneuvers or people facing against them.
It also doesn't address the perceived flaw that exists with maneuvers, where it penalizes non-warriors that use it.

 

Dunno. I still favor keeping the current duration and probably the draw, but adding a trigger similar to Altruism.

I think he was stating that they are not, but should be. The viable options are increasing the quality rating, or nerfing the card.

Perceived advantages humans have? Humans are the bland, middle-management support staff. Dwarves are the elf warrior's competition.

Many players put Elven Maneuvers on non-warriors. It's a trait, and you can get two on a tokenless item.
I'd run Electroporter Novice on my warriors if I could, and I wouldn't consider them penalized.

I think the devs want to keep elven warriors viable, so the nerf shouldn't be draconian.

 

I wouldn't complain about an Altruism roll type. All others I'm not fond of.

 

The problem here is elves are underpowered in general. They're the worst wizards and priests already, warrior is all they're good at. Dwarves do everything well, humans are probably best as support. Which can be all classes as well but is usually priest now. They don't totally outclass dwarves as a warrior so I don't see what the point is of screwing up elves. Dwarves have far better racials, the only reason every noob is running elves is because the few usable dwarf skills are legendary (and they need better weapons like vibrant pain).

As for "This game is getting less friendly to noobs", the latest update caused that. Before crazy Force Field and Cushioning armor legends you could run bejeweled well in the 1600s. If you change maneuvers, most players won't have much reason to PvP since it will be all about dwarves decked out in full legend.

 

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I was pretty sure that since only elves can get more than one Healing Dash, they'd make fairly awesome priests (combo with Talented Healer, obv, for vamp decks).
I think the issue is that elves are still hard to play as wizards, this I can agree with.