Uncle Ector's Appraisal of Space Treasures

Dude, people often called me a "troll", but at least I've never wrote a post absolutely without any useful discussion, just the stupid trolling like your Christoff did. Nobody needs such "opinions", and the good forums moderators punish for such behaviour. If you, or Christoff, or anybody else wants to discuss my opinion on any item or card - you're welcome. If you just want to discuss me - please get out of here. Nobody wants to discuss me, including myself

 

I was enjoying the discussion too, and I'm sure nobody can prevent the discussion I'm just thinking about the next arguments.

 

Surely it does. But the untested theory also may exist, it's called a "hypothesis". Testing in CCGs is very difficult, especially when the metagame changes completely after the release of a new set. Plus, the testing should be performed by the best players (I often call them "ideal players"), since every mistake will affect the result.
You can say that item A is better than item B only if an ideal player gets the better results with item A versus the same metagame (and versus the other ideal players, of course). Nobody needs the "experience" of Timmy who loses just because of his own mistakes or wins just because his opponents are even worse than himself. That's why my experience means nothing: I'm a bad player, and everyone knows that. But at least I can produce some hypothesis, which can be proved true or false by the good players, if they would like to. I am always happy to discuss any part of my theory, and if anybody proves me wrong, I will thank him, as he will enhance my knowledge of the game. In terms of science, any theory is better than no theory at all

 

Couple of things before addressing the items:

While Christoff may not have been exactly on topic, your response was completely disproportionate, he was not discussing you per say, just the method.
As regards

that's not really true, as incorrect theories can impede understanding of a subject, take, for instance, the theory of phlogiston, or the idea of luminiferous aether or spontaneous generation.

Anyway, that stuff's irrelevant. Back on topic:

Subtle Parry isn't great, true enough, and falls behind other parries. It is alright for paper quality though, it is unlikely to block an attack less than four for card draw, true, but it still blocks a melee attack 2/3 of the time, assuming no shenanigans. So I think the shields are being sold a bit short in this review (though there are better less rare shields in the expansion, and nothing to really top Aegis Of Defender (in general)

Reality Warper is a pretty decent item, the other cards may not go with accelerate time, true, but they are great cards and you don't need every single card to work with it.
Bloome's Barging Boots looks pretty wonderful to me, and worth the major token in some cases.
Scatter Laser won't see its potential most of the time, so Repulsor Raygun seems like a pretty bad choice to me, you can get much cheaper force cones.
Sanger's Space Cap you seem unduly harsh on, Mimetic Crown is obviously great, Advanced Battlefield Training can be very useful and Dodge isn't all that bad.

 

I could believe in that if he'd try to prove me wrong on any topic. He didn't. People like him aren't interested in the good discussion, they just want me to shut up, since, in their eyes, only the best players deserve to say something at the forums.

Firstly, incorrect theories aren't the same as unproven theories. Secondly, from a scientific point of view, even the incorrect theories are better than no theory at all, as they can lead to the correct theories.

If you have to discard a card instead of playing it, I call that a "soft card disadvantage". Subtle Parry causes such disadvantage pretty often, since you cannot play it, and it isn't good enough to discard the other cards to keep it. At the start of the game you don't need the Block Melee cards, so it's likely to get discarded. If you're playing versus the wizards, it's going to be discarded as well. It isn't very good even in melee, since you just trade one opponent's card + one opponent's action for one your card. Finally, The Lunginator loves to discard such blocks... This is what I call "bad".
The Subtle Parry may find its uses if people start to play a lot of Nova Axes, but I don't believe in that.

Hmm... Short Perplexing Ray was a great card before nerfing. Now you're just trading one your card + an action for one random opponent's card and move 1 square. Telekinesis is decent, especially in a Volcano deck, but you can get it much cheaper and without Short Perplexing Rays.

Really? Do you rate Lunging Bash so highly or you're just fascinated by Rocket Charge? I have Boots Of Etzicatl, a very focused item, and it costs only - and I still never used them. The boots with mass moves are simply too good to be replaced by the boots without the mass moves. Especially by the boots for a yellow token.

Why do you think so? There are enough open space maps AFAIK.

Could you please tell me how do you use the Advanced Battlefield Training?

 

If you really want to run three warriors, then Nova Axe really becomes the best possible weapon - provided the opponents would use the attachments. I have to admit that I've never used three warriors, since I've considered two warriors + cleric much better. This can completely change now, of course. I guess I'd try two warriors + a wizard now, using the wizard to discard enemy armor and to control the enemy movement. Ideally, the party should kill the enemies one by one.

 

Unfortunately, that's a necessity. Every game that doesn't have a "set rotation" (or, plainly speaking, robbery of the old players) experiences a "power creep": the decks become stronger and stronger, and most of the cards remain unplayed. The "bad" legendaries serve to decrease the level of power creeping.

I need BJSS may deal more damage, it may be better vs Adaptable, but it's clearly worse vs Cushioning Armor, since it has less movement and no penetrating attacks. After all, no char can have more than one Adaptable, but a warrior can have three Cushioning Armors.

The Powerpike is really very powerful, but it has absolutely no movement. Warriors need the step attacks. Vibrant Pain is good simply because it offers great movement. People are playing Laser Rapiers, Nova Axes and The Lunginators right because they need both movement and damage.

 

Incorrect theories (if wildly inaccurate) are not better than no theory at all, as they lead people down the wrong road. Anyway, there is a big difference between scientific theory and theory as it's commonly used. I know incorrect theories aren't the same as unproven ones, you used the word "any" though. (Also, by definition, a scientific theory needs to have some sort of evidence to earn the title of theory, otherwise it's just a hypothesis. A hypothesis is not a scientific theory, but a scientific theory was necessarily a hypothesis, at some point)

Subtle Parry is obviously not the best block, it even falls far behind the paper quality Pushback Parry. However, it is not such a bad card just to dismiss an item outright because it has it on it.

You are essentially already spending the major token on the Accelerate Time, it's just a question of what cards you want along with it. Short Perplexing Ray can be used for wizards to retreat from melee and for discarding armours and suchlike near the end of a round with few cards for it to choose from. Maybe "great" was an exaggeration though
I personally use Boots Of Etzicatl quite a lot (and would use it more but for Diamond Moccasins), Lunging Bash is a very versatile card, and Rocket Charge does a massive base 15 damage, and has a huge advantage over Brutal Charge in having fly. They would be good shoes for a bruising warrior (lots of bashes), though probably not so much on anything else.

As regards Scatter Laser: Assuming three targets it does an average base of 14.25 damage (EDIT: Sorry, forgot about the rounding up, it's actually 15 base), and any damage boosts will be multiplied by three, which is certainly not to be sniffed at. However there is a 1/3 chance of getting a malfunction, normally only harmful to the caster and characters close by. Whether you'll have sight of all your opponents depends on what characters they are, whether they know you have it, and the map. Any round you keep it to have LOS on all three opponents is a round you must drop another card. Of course I can't say with any certainty how often all three opponents will be in range on average. It is certainly a good card, but I don't think it justifies two major tokens for Repulsor Raygun.

Advanced Battlefield Training can be used to: Pass move cards for one character to either escape or move in to attack; Pass damage booster cards such as Frenzy Aura or All Out Attack; Pass move booster cards for Charges and extra maneuverability on a certain character; Pass attacks cards from one character out of range to another in range; Pass block cards to a character in duress. Is it worth its gold quality? Probably not... I still maintain that Sanger's Space Cap is alright. It is not the best helmet, certainly, but it was the only item you gave a 1/1 rating to.

 

I've been playing a lot of Accelerate Time and I have to disagree with your opinions on Flame Warper, Reality Warper, and Klonox's Warper.

Klonox's Warper can be situationally good but there's too much disparity within itself to be of good use (especially between Illusory Barrier and Firestorm). Flame Warper is the best out of the three and I'd rate it 5!/5 because Accelerate Time has amazing synergy with fire spells. I use one myself. Reality Warper on the other hand is perfect for adding Accelerate Time to a control wizard. Its strength may not be readily apparent, but on the same wizard you'd probably be running terrain attachments and control effects.

I'm speaking from a position where I could actually use these legendaries, and I have one of them (a Flame Warper).

 

I've been using Sanger's Space Cap. There are better options, but it's pretty decent. One way to use it is combine it with The Softener. Having multiple Cushioning Armor in hand isn't very good, but with Advanced Battlefield Training you can pass one to another character. That also guarantees it will be their newest armor, so if they had a reliable mail they can now reduce all damage to 3 max. Also, Mimetic Crown is a good combo with Cushioning, and it's useful for assembling all out attack combos, and making sure you have enough moves to pull it off.

 

Let me bring a quick and clear example. Egyptians couldn't calculate pi precise enough, so they used the fraction 256/81 instead (approximately 3.16). This is incorrect, but close enough to serve their needs. Same about my theory: everybody knows it isn't 100% correct, but I hope it's close enough to be useful

When you equip an item, you get all its cards, not just the card you like. If some card is mediocre, or even worse than mediocre, then you put some bad cards to get the good cards. This makes your deck unstable, even if the item is tokenless. When you pay a yellow token for an item, you should expect getting only the good cards IMHO. You'll get enough mediocre cards from the tokenless items anyway

This situation is exactly the same. Short Perplexing Ray is short-ranged, and if you're playing wizards versus wizards you may never come that close to the enemies at all. You will often have to discard it, which provides a card advantage to the opponent. It would be great if I'd really pay the yellow token only for Accelerate Time, and the rest two cards wouldn't go into my deck, but in fact they go, alas.

Boots Of Etzicatl should demonstrate you that charge doesn't work every time. Sometimes you just need to move 5, even if there are no enemies to charge. Sometimes you even need to move away from the enemies. Using the boots, you have three charging cards, so you can use them for those purposes without hesitation. Here you have only one Rocket Charge, and you pay a lot for it. If you spend it just for movement, that would be a waste of tokens. So you'll have to setup your charge by adding , which is difficult and will make your deck unstable, as you have only one copy of Rocket Charge.

Both Scatter Laser items are good only at the open maps - that's why their ratings have '?'. There are maps where cover is very difficult to find, and Scatter Lasers rule there. Besides, there are maps with the key narrow passages where nobody can hide.

Every use you've mentioned implies card disadvantage, since you spend a card just to transfer some cards from your warrior to somebody else, and card disadvantage is bad. Moreover, the Advanced Battlefield Training is performed by a warrior, who should be "in duress" himself! It would be much better if it would be on a divine item or divine weapon. But there is no other use of a warrior except for being on the front line. One ABT isn't going to change this.
I claim that ABT is bad just because it will do something useful very rarely. How many Frenzy Auras are you going to play, and what are the chances of having both ABT and Aura? How many All-Out-Attacks can you play at all (not even mentioning Cushioning Armor that makes it useless)? The ABT does nothing most of the time.
The Space Cap was rated 1/1 since it costs a yellow token. There is no way of using a helmet with one good card, one mediocre card (Dodge) and one bad card for a yellow token. Remember that warriors usually spend their yellow tokens on weapons. You may want to spend a yellow token on The Softener, but Space Cap? No way.

 

You may be right on the rating, I just have my doubts. Remember that Instant Burn also triggers all that wizard's burning spells, plus it deals extra 2 damage - and you still get six Instant Burns for . One card, even so good as Accelerate Time, is rarely so awesome to pay a yellow token for it and rate it 5!
I'd give the item "5!" hands down if it would have Accelerate Time and two Volcanoes. Or at least one Volcano and one Wall Of Fire. The problem is the limited number of yellow tokens, so if you run Accelerate Time, you cannot run two Mordecai's Staff Of Magma anymore, so you may just lack Volcanoes for your Accelerate Time!

 

Guess how good are your chances of collecting two Cushioning Armors of three and the only one Advanced Battlefield Training simultaneously in your hand?
I have to note that you've already spent two yellow tokens out of four. You aren't going to make a warrior with the bad weapons, are you?

 

Just chiming in to add my 2c on an actually non-secondary issue.

Please, do not feel the urge to hijack a thread just because you don't like something about what the OP is saying. Constructive criticism is usually welcome, just like sharing your alternative perspective on whatever is being discussed.

But posting just for the sake of undermining whatever the thread's author has clearly put lots of effort into? That doesn't add anything meaningful or interesting. If you think a thread's not useful to you then just ignore it, it's not like people posting in this forums have an obligation to only post what might be helpful to a few selected individuals.

Also remember, you don't want to be this dude.

 

Since we're apparently chiming in now on the conduct of the thread, I'd like to push the alternate perspective:
To me, the first few questions, if not ideally phrased, were entirely legitimate.
IE, 'how much time have you personally spent using these items' could be construed as a 'is this just theory-crafting or can I take a bit more out of this?'
Had the OP responded respectfully instead of personally attacking the later posters, the tone of the subsequent posts likely would have been better.

In fact, reviewing the later posts, they all seem to be addressing specific points on the theorycrafting, poking at specific items or perspectives.
Even if there may be some dubious elements [I can't find any], they do all seem to be valid responses to a discussion on item values.

The OP, on the other hand, had made several posts solely to attack posters before I ended up blocking him just to stop having to see such conduct.


Rather, if you're going to make a point of jumping into a thread you had no prior participation in, solely to insist that one side is at fault in a matter, perhaps you could provide some quotes of things the posters in questions could improve?

Because, while I'm not doubting or attempting to undermine your perspective, the fact that I can't see the problems in their posts suggests that they may not either.


In fact, other than Christofff typing out a comment that seems to suffer from poor translation or grasp of English far more than any intentional hostility, OTHER than the OP's posts, I can't see a single post in this thread that directly undermines or attacks anyone.
There are a few off-hand comments about the proper use of the word 'theory', but those don't seem to have much at all to do with the OP directly, and everything else is based around responding to actual theorycrafting elements.


Of course, the difference may be in our expectations of what a theory-crafting thread's responses should look like.
I'm used to there being a lot of back and forth on points- unless the OP specifically and respectfully makes a point in the OP about how they want the thread to progress.
Likewise, while your comment on people not needing to enter random threads is entirely legitimate, I'm used to theory-crafting threads being all ABOUT people jumping in to contribute differing perspectives.

Your phrasing seems to suggest you only want comments that agree with the OP's perspective.

Again, not trying to argue your actual perspectives, I'm just saying that, your post could do with a bit of clarification and elaboration on points.

Thanks!

 

My post wasn't about calling out names, or stating who's in the wrong or in the right. In fact I didn't quote anybody, nor will I start now. Actually, I probably should have been even more vague.

I will reiterate though, I do think the effort he's put in this thread is well worth some respect, regardless how useful it might end up being to people, or whether or not people might disagree with him. The fact a good chunk of the replies have not been about what he originally posted is in and of itself very unkind to him, and for that I need to apologize myself.

In my defense, I'll say I've had several chances to express my disagreement with some @Ector's opinions, as well as my feeling towards his sometimes-tempered way of replying to those who don't share his own view on things. All of that publicly. I know this, he knows this, and that never implied we needed to attack each other (or each other's work, for the matter).

Sharing a different opinion (in a polite and respectful way) is perfectly legit, no doubts about that. But I do feel like something else was happening here, though I'm certain in complete absence of any malicious intent.

Not gonna keep up with the off-topic here, as the sole fact these many posts have not been about whatever Ector originally posted is a great disservice to him. Hopefully nobody felt like I was pointing-fingers at anybody, as I was really trying to dismiss a specific attitude rather than any specific individual. If further explanation is needed, I'll be happy to talk this via PM.

 

If you guys won't stop discussing whether I was polite enough or not, the trolls' attempt to destroy this thread will succeed. DunDunDun, you don't know that I have a long history of discussing the value of theory and experience with peonprop and others, and nobody can say something new here. That's why their attempt to hijack this thread was a pure trolling, and both sides knew that.

Now please, everybody, stop discussing me! Stop even defending me, please! Does anybody still want to discuss the Legendaries, by chance?

 

One of the big themes of your post is that many of these are overcosted, which I tend to agree with (since we see so many new green/gold cards, have to have worse cards to compensate). I do wonder if EttSC has more items with different card values than the original set or AotA.

Just OTTOMH, it sure looks like we don't see any new weapons/divine weapons/staves with 6x silver cards here, and few items with 3x silver. Hmm. Sure sounds like it'd lead to a swingier meta.

 

Swingier games ≠ swingier meta. What makes a meta swingy? When there are hyper-focused builds that interact with each other like rock paper scissors. How do those builds emerge? Focused items like Blue Destruction. Printing less consistent items leads to a more even environment, even if that may seem counterintuitive.

 

I think that's only true if you get rid of the hyper-focused items that already exist.