On dice and pizza (to the devs)

After reading another post about how unfair dice were and the RNG is broken and out to get me and waah how did I miss that 2+ roll I made it the past ten times that never happens, I got to thinking. (Oh, first, props to the guy who brought up Blood Bowl, Nuffle be praised.) That kind of talk always happens with dice games. But in this situation, you (the devs) have the ability (and desire) to do something about it.

I know Betas feel like freebie lovefests, and it is important for a dev to maintain a healthy happy community, but this is still a commercial product. It deserves to make money; games are too hard to make to be charity work. Zynga may be on its deathbed, but it at least mainstreamed the idea of micropayments. People will pay a pittance for something they need right that moment. Facebook games are built on purely that model.

You can see where I'm going with this. Players, light your torches. Devs, get ready to afford groceries.


Let me pay 5 pizza to change a die in to a 6. (In single player.)


You know we'll do it. And you shouldn't be ashamed. I'm not going to pay for costumes in SP. I'm not going to pay for dungeons to get an item I don't need. But when I'm down to my last guy on the last dungeon of a module, and I blow a Parry, show me a button and I'll click it. Don't pause the game; don't make me choose yes or no, just have a "Make this a 6 -- 5 pizza" button pop up next to the big Red X of Shame for as long as it takes the card to stay up. The short time will make it even more impulsive.

Yes, we are all entitled to free games and how dare devs charge two dollars for a game they spent a year making and spent $1000 of their own money on to get art (okay, I'm projecting with that one) and rabble rabble purity rabble free. But who is hurt if I pay for an edge against the AI?

 

That is completely and blatantly against the "no pay-2-win" rule they seem to have (and WE WANT them to have) as a key in making this game succesful.

 

Well it would hurt because you get faster progress and that gets you better items for pvp but i honestly don't care since it wouldn't affect me noticeable just seams like a bad idea still

 

Oh, and it will make people go like "here we go, i have a block but i KNOW the game will cheat and make it fail just to make me spend 5 pizza".

That's a big, big no for me.

 

Paying money should never guarantee success.

 

If you fail on a mission, you can pay pizza to respawn. It's already in there a little bit.

But omg, awesome point on the MP (that I keep forgetting exists). If SP characters can cross over to MP, then I think even the pizza respawn needs to be taken out. Money should never buy success - against another player. Facebook makes billions on people paying money to beat the computer.

But this:
"That is completely and blatantly against the "no pay-2-win" rule they seem to have (and WE WANT them to have) as a key in making this game succesful."
is you being (understandably) a player. The game is not successful if it doesn't make money. You wanting to play for free is exactly the pitchfork attitude that always comes up when money is mentioned in an indie game. Close your eyes and picture that you have spent every evening and weekend for a year working on a game. Can you really say your motivation is to make some random guy on a forum happy rather than to make money for your hard work?

I really like the limit on how many times you can do it in a game addition.

 

I don't see how being "unfair" to a computer player is any more OK than being unfair to a real player. Paying money to influence in-game mechanics does not sound good to me. Using pizza to get a retry or help reduce waiting periods seems more understandable to me. It should never come down to: "Man, this adventure is tough! I'll just pay a few bucks and blow right by it." It's basically cheating the system. The whole point of the game is the RNG. If you could pay to effect that, you're changing the entire game.

 

Never ever assume things like this he in no way said he was looking to enjoy the game for free. All he said was he and a lot of others despise buying power because it has blatantly ruined so many games in such a absurd way. I got 50$ on a account just waiting to be converted to pizza but the moment i hear "legendary pack" or "premium only item" that is not happening any more the price is irrelevant.

 

None of us said anything about demanding everything in the game be free. A specific suggestion for a payed content option was made and replied to. Nowhere was there an assertion that all modules should be free, nor that party resurrection should be free, nor that all skins should be free, nor that MP starter packs should be free. Only that paying for an automatic success was a bad idea. Please stop confusing "shouldn't pay for that" with "shouldn't pay for anything."

 

That's exactly what i've been trying to say, ty Wozarg.

Tribes:Ascend is a good f2p model, in my hopinion.
I was able to play (competetively - coming from the previous tribes) to good success, unlocking via play-earned points everything i needed for my main class & role, without spending a single dollar.
I then decided i wanted to try out different classes and i went on to buying 20$ worth of "gold" to unlock it more easily and faster.
Everything *could* be acquired via playing, it was just faster buying it (like an MP pack that could be bought with pizza).
That lead to more fun and to more $ spent (about 20$ more i think) just to get the most out of my playing time (as it would be by paying for premium dungeons and additional content).
Basically the "free" part of the game made me want to play cause i liked it and had great fun. That's the way it should be.

That didn't make me "stronger" -> no pay-2-win; that allowed me to pay as much as i wanted and to feel good paying.
"Forcing" me to buy pizza so i could istantly reroll and make the game much easier is not something i would like, and it would drive me away from the game slowly but steadily.
I'd be happy to (and i WILL) buy pizza for dungeons and maybe some aestethics.

 

I think this issue needs to be talked about in greater detail, and thought about a little more carefully by the BM team.

So far, the only worries I have about the game, is Pizza. I'm all for stuff that can be bought, as long as it is only aesthetics, and in no way gameplay altering.

If something like what Dorque suggested was implemented into this game, I'd simply not play it. This is not a cheap and derivative facebook game, praying on lazy and casual gamers who don't really understand what they're doing. Maybe this is the curse of flash game, or that the game is played in a browser, which unfortunately tends to cause people to automatically think, oh, another cheap facebook-like game with premium rip-off schemes, with the obvious premium currency.

It would be a pity if that happened, because I would happily pay for some fancy skins, clothing dyes, a custom tabletop, tabletop items, cool looking dice (the kinda items that would show up to the people you were playing with in multiplayer/co-op as the host/home player), and access to beta.
I'm ready to throw money at this game, (as long as it withholds standards) just like many other people. So BM don't need to implement cheap moneymaking schemes like Zynga, it'll just ruin the game, and people will resent them for it.

I'm worried about paying for dungeons and paying for retries. People might not see this as pay to win, but due to what you can get out of these, it is. Am I going to be at a disadvantage if I don't pay for dungeons and retries? Yes, I will. I don't like the idea that because I'm not paying for something (even though I'd already be paying for the game in form of aesthetics), others will have a better and greater chance to defeat dungeons and gain rare drops (premium dungeons apparently increase the drop rate of rare items, unless I'm mistaken, this is just paying to win, paying to use the premium dungeon to drop the rares quicker than those who don't).

 

Tell my any free to play game that doesnt have at least some convenience options for cash which lets you save time at least to some degree. They have to get payed too and the options available right now I find okay.

 

Ya know one place opens up that isn't trying to take your money every chance they can. I mean there are enough games out there that follow the Micro-transaction strategy so much it becomes a fault. Look at Old Republic, or any of those places where you buy something for a month. They know that there are people.. much like yourself that will pay anything for an advantage. I understand they are running a service, and need money as well, but you would think it being a product that there would be some limit in price people are willing to pay.

Let me ask you.. if you spent a job working a job for $20 an hour, and you did this for a year.. did you know that would equal to about $40,000 a year. How much do you think.. as is... they are going to make off the current cash shop? Now how much over time? There will be a large amount at first, it will prob fall a bit after that, but eventually as they release new stuff, and then balance out as new users join. So basically... in other words... I think they will be just fine without you wanting to give them more money, or they would change it. I am sure if you wish to donate something they would be happy (That is up to them), but for now just enjoy the game man. And if it is too hard, then try to get some better gear, or ask questions.

Sorry for going on a bit of a rant there, but there are people who say things like this that keep those crazy companies going. There is no reason for something like this, its supposed to be hard to progress.. That is kinda the point or else they would just say here ya go.. and give ya all the things ya need. The extra dungeons are Okay, as is, and if you think they give "Just Loot" then I think ya might be missing part of the extra bonuses that go along with it.

Edit: To the people who worry bout this, I think it is kinda putting the cart before the horse... As is, they have extra dungeons that are really not that bad money wise. It seems about 1 out of every 3 are like this, but my count could be wrong. That means ya get two dungeons for every one there is to pay? Right now isn't that bad, I kinda would like to give them a benefit of doubt on this one.

 

I think it is more like 1 premium every 3-4 free overall but I'm not exactly sure.

You misunderstand two things here. The first is that a retry gives me a noticeably bigger chance to beat the adventure. All it does is save me the time to replay through the previous maps in the adventure that is the definition of money instead of time convenience. Just so you know replaying the adventure gives you loot after every map that people who pay for retries miss out on.

The premium dungeons do not have a better drop rate in any way. They do have a single epic item that you are rewarded the first time you complete the dungeon but except for that it is a normal dungeon. This item can drop as part of loot from non premium adventures which i know for a fact because i got one of them before even getting to the dungeon.

 

Oh, so it's even worse than I feared, you're literally paying for an epic item.

Noticeably bigger chance, like, an easy mode?...hnm, I suppose that's not so bad. Still for example, because of this feature, after 1 day playing this game, with one player using pizza and another one not, of equal skill levels, the one using pizza will have the advantage over the other, being able to complete dungeons faster. This would put me off multiplayer, nothing worse than going into something, knowing how much effort you put in, playing carefully to not die often, doing everything perfectly to progress quickly, and fairly, to find out that someone paid and got ahead of you using pizza retries, and has these items that you simply didn't have the time to get. I understand features like this are meant to be time saving methods for those who can't play for long periods of time, but features like this can also give unfair advantages over other players.

 

And are in every free to play game. Its not like you get stronger you just get it faster and that is in EVERY free to play game or else they wouldnt make any money , if you want a game where that is not so you have to pay for monthly subscription and even those have microtransactions with those unfair advantages you speak of nowadays.

 

An unfair advantage is when they get something that is either unavailable or super difficult to get on your own without it. Epic items, are not that hard to get (If you play the game), and retries you can do with gold not just pizza. But both those things are really not that big of a thing.. But I will explain

If I were better at the game then yourself (Not saying I am, just for this example) I would need less attempts to complete a mission. Therefore I wouldn't need retries, or not nearly as much. The few... very few that I would need I could get with gold. But lets be honest here, how many times do you really retry with gold? I have personally have tried it once.. realized it was kinda wasteful, and haven't again. If I want to retry a mission I just quit, and retry the whole thing over again. Sure it is a bit longer, but with better gear, and knowing what I am going to face it is a lot easier the second time around.

Now with Epic items.. Really man they are good, but they will not make or break ya. Tactics like knowing to get behind someone with dodges, or Penetration against armor.. Stuff like that will get you way further then Epic Gear would. But if that isn't enough, and you really want that gear, then no worries because you get it through normal missions, and normal drops. I mean I have eight epic items right now, and two of them are from the dungeons I tried out when they gave free pizza. I mean the gear you get and the chance to have another dungeon unlocked are good, but in no way does it make you over powered. Not to mention you still have to beat the darn thing.

Wait till they give out free pizza again and you buy one, I think once you get one or two you will realize how little of an advantage they give. I mean lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill here. They have to do "something", and what they have done so far isn't near as bad as some seem to want to make it out to be. Sure you can call me in some "freebie lovefest" or whatever, but really I am a stingy person who doesn't like spending money for almost anything I don't "need to", and from what I have seen it isn't that bad.

btw... Just because others do it doesn't mean its right. We aren't lemmings here, just people trying to save a buck. Micro-transactions can be abused, and it is good to be frugal with your money and if there weren't so many people desperate enough to just throw their money at these people it wouldn't be this way cause they couldn't stay in business. This is just a tangent though... so let me get back on point.

Again.. Lets not jump the gun here. You have to admit at the prices, and what is available it is a better strategy then a lot of choices that could of been chosen. Other then get up in arms about something that isn't that big of a problem, realize that it isn't such a big thing, and if you wanted to do the extra things you could pay the $1 dollars and open up a map... (Yea...$1.... common guys.. this isn't that bad is it?)

Edit: I know it is easy to be a little bit head-shy after all the crap that other places have pulled with this kind of thing. I am sure a lot of us have tried games that were ruined by micro-transactions. But there has to be a point in the middle somewhere that is both profitable for the designers, and good for the players. I think as is the balance is not that bad.. If you think it is, even after all the points of why not I am not sure what to tell ya. Just try not to assume too much and try things out, and keep in mind this isn't them.. this is somewhere new that is working itself out.

 

If you are that against any form of advantage what so ever from paying real money f2p games are probably not for you. I have never in my life seen a f2p that has 0 pay advantages point me to one and i will give you a congratulations and admit to my being mistaken. But if you think the adventures single epic rewards are bad i have to point something out. It is possible to buy premade pvp packs for 40 pizza that have a few epics in them so this game might not be for you in its current form. This is done so that people who just want to pvp aren't completely forced to pve. I would still say that in a single day i could get gear comparable and or better, definitely more flexible then those packs but if you are so against buying time that is a big time buy.

 

You should stop telling me what to do and presuming I don't pay for games, and presuming I'm not chilled. If you don't agree with my opinion, that's fine, but don't go around telling me to go away and play another game. Just because you're in beta doesn't make you any better than the rest of us, so stop acting like it.

I've been a long time follower of this game, and it was originally intended to be a regular pay once for the game type deal. From what I gather, they found out that model isn't in trend anymore for these type of indie games, and went with the micro-model. So I were originally drawn into the game under a different payment model, and has since changed. I also said I have no issues paying for aesthetics in this game, so again, stop presuming.

I'm aware BM have the capital to start up this game, so maybe that's why they haven't touched Kickstarter. But I think it might be best to touch on some of their methods of bringing in money, similar to the way Prison Architect have, oh, and that new Populous game Godus (as if Peter Molyneux NEEDED to use Kickstarter to raise funds for the game, lol).
Micro-transactions might be more current than buying a game outright, but the kinda deals Kickstarter uses to make money is big at the moment, I'm surprised they're not reaping the benefits of that right now, instead of (arguably) light pay to win offers.