New Maps... what do you think

So new 4 pack of MP maps are on the loose!

So far I am liking these maps. The common tread to all of them is clearly that all victory squares are bunched. I like this in that is force more engagement between the 2 sides, no ring-around-the-rosey with 1 guy left on each side keeping away from each other. You can snipe or you can charge but what you can't do is sit back.

 

Flaxative asked me in another thread what I would think of the new maps.

Well....2 for 14, with the 2 victories coming off people quitting at the start. I cannot find a three wizard setup that works, as the maps are way too small to keep anyone away from wizards. I've tried encumbering, I've tried blocking terrain, I've tried moving them away. I've tried volcano spam to make them use up their movement; none of it is working. It's too easy to move, and combine that with the fact that these maps pretty much demand you keep someone in the VPs to win....a wizard sitting in a VP is a dead wizard. Furthermore, the size of the maps doesn't allow for wizards to accumulate enough cards to form a viable defense to sit in the VPs (some flash flood or illusory wall), as step moves basically allow a warrior to traverse half the map in one turn if they want.

My last three days of club membership likely aren't worth the frustration. I've already seem my elo drop 180 points since the map change, and I'm not playing this game to drop, drop, drop, just to gain it all back at the end of the month, and do it all over again. That sounds like work, not a fun game.

I'll drop in here and there to see what is in the stores, but likely no more games for me until the next map change. I hope everyone else enjoys them, however.

 

Sorry to hear your frustrations, and I have to agree to a certain point. I was looking forward to new maps so I could use some of my wizard builds, but alas they don't perform too well.

The whole point of new maps is to add some variation to the meta, and to do well you have to adapt builds which I find fun.
The maps should be split, 2 close quarters and 2 open spaces.
Guess ill be running 2 war 1 priest again.

 

Well, I only play wizards. I do not keep any items that wizards cannot use, as I have no desire to use warriors and priests. I don't mind changing around what my wizards use, but I'm not interested in trying out the other classes. I've never had fun using priests or warriors; I don't even play quick draw because of that reason.

The only map I can think of that is open to any extent is the ballroom, and that has such horrible line of sight, it's not very feasible for wizards either. The other three are very compact.

I certainly understand I'm likely a group of one in this situation. But feedback was asked for, and I have given mine. I'll eat the $2-3 that the last three days of club membership would cost, and just wait until next month. It is what it is.

 

Cool thanks for the feedback. This is a test run for this set of maps and we'll adjust them as necessary in the future.

 

Well I can understand your frustration, I remember a set of maps in December that I couldn't fight against 3 wiz teams, for the most part. I think clever use of Flash Flood should be able to balance the tables a bit, but I can see you have tried and failed to date. With that said being forced to be balanced in approach is probably a good thing, strictly sticking with wizards only does seem stubborn. Last time I met you in a ranked match I think you were using 3 human wizards (all with Geomancer costume) and it seemed to me like you were struggling then. Have you tried going 3 D-wiz? I know it seems counter to reduce mobility, but the ability to survive a direct assault is much higher if that is your issue. I would normally suggest trying to go with a 1 priest 2 wiz to get the buffs and draws to supercharge wizards, but if you don't keep non-arcane items probably not gonna happen. Well I hope you find some success I know I hit a real lull a couple of times and it wasn't fun.

 

I'm just going to stick with what I have and muddle through the 10-15 1 priest, 2 warrior teams I face.
Same weapons, same items, same strategy, every time.

I think that's really the biggest cause of frustration for me. Everyone playing the exact same thing, and it being effective. It does suck the fun out of the game for someone who doesn't want to toe that line. It's getting to the point where I can predict what attack card I'll be seeing based on where the person moves. Which probably says more to my horrible level of play more than anything else, to be honest, but it's still not fun.

And yes, I have no non-wizard usable items. So no priests or warriors for me. I would have to buy the character to even use one. Ha.

 

I haven't played on the new maps too much (maybe 10 games since they were introduced), so do of my feedback whatever you want.

First, let me say I appreciate the effort which went into creating maps which are very different from everything we had before. While I enjoyed the new swing with these maps, I think the biggest issue lays in the fact they are fundamentally all too similar (save for Kitchen). Putting this straight ahead, because I don't want to give the impression I don't like how the maps work. Will talk specifically about this in due time.

Kitchen
This is the less extreme of the bunch. LoS is not restricted too heavily, in fact there's little possibility of taking cover. Distance from spawn to VS to spawn is very short, meaning engagement will happen real soon in the match. A very small map favoring aggressive melee parties.

Ballroom
Love the general topology of the map and the sideways offering limited LoS but safeness from melee threats. Huge spawn to VS distance but short spawn to spawn distance (although hindered by difficult terrain). I don't know what to think about this map specifically, but it sure lacks maneuvering space despite the larger size, which ruins an otherwise interesting map, imho.

Sanctuary (aka The Death Chamber)
Seriously, I like the pond in the middle and difficult terrain on the sides idea, but those measly wall-blocks is what you call "cover"? Add to that, the map's extra small, so you don't really have anywhere to go while the enemy is rushing at you, or positioning wizards in firing position. The VS area has sign next to it reading "do not enter unless you do what you're doing", written in blood ofc.

Parlor
Very similar in spirit to Sanctuary, but yet not less extreme. You can take cover from LoS at least somewhat, but if you stay in your corner only. The VS area is very dangerous, the lack of difficult terrain means you have at least some possibilities of escaping if need be. Not sure why the table was bade impassable (rather than difficult) but it's hardly relevant. The most prominent feature is the fact the map doesn't have a center. Odd.

All of the maps are interesting in their own right but, as I anticipated, I feel the pool lacks diversity. Spaces are often too crowded and the fact maneuvering is often hindered (by the lack of alternative paths, rather than too much difficult terrain) means escape is hardly a choice. Additionally, the fact all paths tend to be very narrow (1-2 tiles wide) means a well placed warrior is more than enough limiting the opponent's maneuverability down to very close to zero.

I think kitchen is pretty solid (if a bit small), Sanctuary and ballroom might help some tweaking but are otherwise nice, while Parlor (as it is) doesn't work very well imho.

The biggest concern comes from the fact all of the maps encourage very aggressive builds (small distances + few alternative paths and room of maneuvering). This is problematic, as the meta will most likely than not lean even more strongly towards warrior builds. I can understand, and would actually welcome, a couple "kill quick or be killed" maps in a pool of four, but with the only map allowing for some reasonable defensive-positioning options being Ballroom, it's hardly a matter worth being discussed.

If anything else, we might see less ninja-style warriors and more heavy-hitter ones instead.

 

Not to sound self-congratulatory, but so far I'm happy with Kitchen and Ball Room, at least from games I've played on them and games I've spectated (and I've been spectating a lot on this rotation). Parlor and Sanctuary both feel poorly executed. I'm definitely going to modify these before they run again. I'd say I'd modify them ASAP but I don't think we're due for a release anytime soon, and I'd like to get more feedback and data. Basically, though, I'm thinking of opening them up a bit.

 

These maps may be awful for wizards, but you can collectively call them the Batmanor, so it mostly evens out. My major beef is that the maps heavily encourage both warriors and fast characters, and elf warriors are already dominant enough thank you very much. Wizards have nearly no chance on these maps when faced with enemies quite literally flying at them.

 

Ikr. I'll stress it again, it's not like I think the maps are "not good enough" on their own right. Rather, when you evaluate the pool as a whole, there's not enough diversity. I think a good pool needs to be made up of maps featuring widely different topologies, so that you can't wing a build which is 100% effective on 4/4 or even 3/4 of the maps.

Doing that means the array of viable builds/strats is going to be narrowed down considerably, potentially favoring a handful of extremely optimized builds over any other. This wouldn't be much of a problem, if only it wouldn't result in a relatively boring/frustrating Ranked MP experience.

But yeah, other than that, I agree Kitchen is the best of the bunch, although I would make one tiny change to that one too, if it was up to me: as things currently stand, the narrow sideways behind difficult terrain (tables) in the NE and SW are not very appealing places to be. Here's why:

• If you're holding the VS and need to run, the difficult terrain will block you, so you're more likely to go in one of the map's corners (which is fine).
• If you want to position a wizard to get LoS to someone holding the VS while still staying at a relatively safe distance, you're essentially putting yourself in a death trap: an enemy warrior/priest can simply move to melee range (i.e. step on the difficult terrain), effectively pinning him down to the wall.
• If you want to move a warrior/priest to attack somebody standing on the other side of the tables row, it's just like the difficult terrain wasn't there at all (previous scenario, just from the attacker's perspective).

In short, the difficult terrain is essentially working in favor of an attacker (moving from the center to the sides) rather than the player trying to hold a safe position. This effectively makes Kitchen feel more like a 7x8 map rather than a 9x8 one (I'm willingly ignoring the spawn-location alcoves).

Ofc, it might as well be map was intentionally designed with the intent of it being very compact and friendly towards aggressive players, but I feel like this might be a tad too much. Especially when you consider the rest of the pool is also favoring the same kind of strats, for the most part.

My suggestion concerning Kitchen specifically would be to make the NE and SW sideways wider, making them 2-tiles wide. This wouldn't be much of a change (a player standing behind the difficult terrain is still relatively unsafe), but would at least make moving into the hallways less of a death sentence, making Kitchen an overall more rounded map.

As for Ballroom, it's also fine for the most part. I don't have any specific piece of advice for that one, aside from the general advice of opening up more attack-paths, while still maintaining the 2 walls allowing for partial LoS concept in.

While I certainly agree with the sentiment, I feel the need to point out this issue is not entirely imputable to the Manor pool. Truth is, after the latest several rounds of balance changes, wizards have been made waaaaaay weaker vs. mobile warriors.

The fact you can't encumber a character down to a full halt anymore coupled with the nerfs to various control spells really put wizards at a severe disadvantage, as long as a one-on-one fight is concerned. This is despite the fact step-attacks have been made less effective (mobility wise).

This is also why @gulo gulo is having such a hard time making his builds and strategies work. Add to that, small maps + difficult terrain work against ranged characters more than they do vs mobile warriors, further amplifying the whole issue.

Wizards simply can't survive a toe-to-toe encounter with any decently built warrior. A dwarf wizard might be fine surviving a 1-turn long up-close-and-personal situation, but all other races are essentially done for, in such an instance (assuming no lucky Defender's Blonk/Cause Fumble draws saving the day).

A small map makes kiting and running for your wizard's life much less of an option, but step-warriors or warriors supported by team-moves will more often than not be able to close the gap no matter how many cold spells or winds of war you trow at them, even in a larger, more wide open environment.

So yeah, people will likely point out the maps are heavily favoring warrior-builds (which is partially true), but I think the devs will sooner or later admit the recent changes made wizard-players' lives way too hard than what's acceptable. I can see some more adjustments making the issue less severe, eventually.

 

I have found a combination of items that is making it work somewhat, although I still think this team will get demolished by a majority of the 2 warrior, 1 priest builds that use all those step moves and such.

j. lawrence
Level 9 Human Wizard

Blue Destruction
Blue Destruction
Ring Of Appropriation
Mad Eskin's Pin
Brin's Spiked Rod
Simin's Glowing Mirror
Robes Of Levitation
Lt. Buckwell's Boots
Thoughtful Guidance
Electroporter Novice
​

1 x Arcane Spray
12 x Arcane Burst
1 x Counterspell
1 x Dimensional Traveller
4 x Telekinesis
2 x Hover
2 x Flanking Move
1 x Zap
1 x Gusts Of War
1 x Thick Hide Armor
1 x Officer's Harness
1 x Spark Inductor
1 x Short Perplexing Ray
3 x Stone Spikes
1 x Jarring Block
1 x Jump, Soldier!
1 x Spark Generator
1 x Block, Soldier!
​

t. swift
Level 1 Human Wizard

Deadly, Deadly Staff
Cottonwood Staff
Mad Eskin's Pin
Ring Of Appropriation
Acidic Gland
Twizel's Water Talisman
Robes Of Levitation
Lt. Buckwell's Boots
Thoughtful Guidance
Electroporter Novice
​

1 x Arcane Spray
1 x Spark Inductor
3 x Acid Spray
2 x Barge
4 x Telekinesis
2 x Hover
2 x Flanking Move
2 x Stone Spikes
1 x Gusts Of War
1 x Thick Hide Armor
6 x Deadly Spark
1 x Officer's Harness
2 x Spark
3 x Flash Flood
1 x Jarring Block
1 x Dimensional Traveller
1 x Jump, Soldier!
1 x Spark Generator
1 x Block, Soldier!
​

j. chastain
Level 1 Human Wizard

Mordecai's Staff Of Magma
Mullik's Blisterstaff
Boxton's Red Pendant
Tarial's Diadem
Rod Of Palver Pree
Rantic's Orb Of Inner Fire
Robes Of Levitation
Kelharin's Clogs
Thoughtful Guidance
Electroporter Novice
​

2 x Hover
4 x Volcano
1 x Spark Inductor
1 x Counterspell
2 x Flame Jet
1 x Dimensional Traveller
2 x Telekinesis
1 x Team Walk
1 x Stone Spikes
1 x Thick Hide Armor
1 x Hot Spot
2 x Firestorm
2 x Flash Of Agony
1 x Jump, Soldier!
3 x Glob Of Flame
1 x Jarring Block
1 x Boiling Armor
2 x Officer's Harness
1 x Wall Of Fire
1 x Spark Generator
1 x Block, Soldier!
4 x Force Cone
​

Basically, it's move, move, move, and move everyone as much as you can. There's a lot of damage sacrifice here, and perhaps it could be tweaked a little to put some more damage in, but it's gotten me back into the 1300s on these maps. Basically, you have people chase you all around, and then make sure they are always on terrain. Dwarfs with a ton of armor will be a problem, but they always are; hopefully you can catch them on some acid.

Probably the wrong thread for any suggestions (and please move this if should be), but I'm open to them if anyone has thoughts.

 

I'd post the build in the deck building subforum (name it "Help wanted: 3 wiz build for Batford's Maps" or something) and specifically ask for advice in there.

More people will notice your inquiry for help if you place it in the correct subforum and name it appropriately.

 

Not specifically looking for help, but if anyone has thoughts, I'm open to them. I'm sure I will tinker as time goes on. Thanks, though.

 

More SPR!

 

I have no clue what that means, but thanks.

 

Short Perplexing Ray

 

More Short Perplexing Rays AKA SPR

 

Ah, that makes sense. I suppose I could swap out one of the Blue Destructions, move the Acidic Gland over to Ms. Lawrence, and throw in a Larkin's Orb for the SPR, along with switching out the Thoughtful Guidance for Superb Guidance, which allows the second staff to be a Silver Fir Staff (more parries is good). Moving that gland allows Ms. Swift to now have a Bewlin's Baffling Bauble.

There's some more SPR for you.

And that addition has made the build much more hit or miss, to be honest. Less destruction and more things getting blocked. Ha.

 

A suggestion I've made in the past: have two sets of maps active each month. Each set would be active for two months, but staggered.

For example:
Winter + Celestial
Celestial + Vulcan
Vulcan + Gladius
Gladius + Manor