It's been a while since the update, and Aegis of the Defender is just as crazy as expected. It's approaching use in 100% of matches at even relatively high level. When a match starts, I'm now assuming every shield user is using the Aegis, and I'm guessing most of you are too. There is no reason to use any other shield. In fact, block 3+ vs 2+ is hardly a downside at all against melee, while mostly negating positioning and massively increasing consistency (since each DB on any character can cover a whole team) are, well, crazy. I haven't seen any counterplay for Defender's Block either. Not on my part or my opponent's part. It's just "oh well, let's see who can draw more Defender's Blocks". Since it removes positioning as a realistic option, the best move is probably hitting it with a burst or part of a triple heals and praying it connects, conceding the card draw. If anyone has a different experience with it, or can explain why you would use anything else, I'd be interested to hear it. Incidentally, even if Aegis was expensive it would be OP and negate too much of the gameplay, but it isn't really. Warriors have very good options in cheap, easily obtainable weapons, like Double Edged Sword and Warrior's Mace. Priests have more demands, and I might be unaware of a build which can't spare a yellow token... but I doubt it, because the Aegis would likely be a better marginal gain than the least necessary of the others. For example, Purging Mace, Sacrificial Axe, Huetotl's Firebrand, Bloody Command, Spellstripper Relic, Xlaka's Sacred Bundle, etc... I'm not seeing where you'd be locked in to using 4 yellows and not including Aegis. For some math that may surprise you, compare the Aegis against the Parrying Buckler in pure melee defense. The Parrying Buckler is amazing for that purpose. However, a single character gets 3 parries from the buckler. A team with no wizards has 6 Defender's Blocks... double the expected value at any given time. 2 Defender's Blocks is more reliable against a normal hit than a single parry (8/9 vs 5/6) and more reliable against an unnerving strike (5/9 vs 1/2). That means the "lead with unnerving strike" strategy is more effective against the Parrying Buckler than against the Aegis... without even getting into the fact the Parrying Buckler is vulnerable to positioning and the Aegis isn't (which is a big chunk of the game right there), that the unnerving strike might not discard DB if it got through (someone else is holding the block), and the fact that Defender's Block is fantastic against wizards (where the improved block chance vs SSB or Catch Arrow is huge) while Parry is near worthless.
Sorry to hear that Defender's Block is proving frustrating for you. It's entirely possible that the card and/or the Aegis that provides it are too good. Or not, I don't know. I don't play a lot of multiplayer, so I only know that I delight in having two Aegises for many adventures in the campaign. But it sounds like some of your argument that Defender's Block is too good is based on the idea that it's vastly better than Parry. The problem with that is that Defender's Block is supposed to be a lot better than Parry, since it's a gold card compared to a bronze card. It's supposed to be better approximately to the same degree that Mighty Bludgeon (13 damage) is better than Trained Bludgeon (6 damage). Perhaps even more so, since the card is a Rare.
The best way to play around Defender's Block is the same as you'd play against someone who has a Parry in hand. Run right into it with something you don't care about. If you know or suspect that there's a Defender's Block somewhere, hit the character that is least likely to punish you for it like a buff priest. I find that Defender's Block is actually awful against wizards because they are the most likely to be able to draw out the block on the weakest character. You can also try to reface the character with Defender's Block so that they no longer protect the rest of the party. This takes a bit of work but not much more than flanking someone with a regular block.
That's not the only thing you could do against parry. You could: 1. Attack someone else 2. Surround so they can't look both ways 3. Quick run, flanking move, or step attack to attack from behind 4. Wait until they can't turn and attack from behind 5. War cry and attack (the current lack of war cry use is directly because everyone is using Aegis) 6. Unnerving strike, either from behind using the above (guaranteeing discard), or from the front and have a 1/2 chance for a hit and a discard 7. Weak chop with 5/6 chance of hitting it, giving up card advantage, but hopefully making that target vulnerable Against the Aegis, you: 1. Weak chop with 4/6 chance and pray for the best case scenario of giving up card advantage, but unfortunately since DB is shared among the team the target you just attacked is still probably not vulnerable It's funny, because Aegis being used in every match suggests people are aware it dominates by an overwhelming margin. Yet many don't acknowledge the value of team protection, both in mathematical terms and in versatility. The unnerving strike is just one example of the math; team protection means that 6 Defender's Blocks in your deck have double the expected value of appearing in your hand than the 3 parries on Parrying Buckler, thus better protect a character from a frontal unnerving strike. And again, that hasn't even taken into account the true power of Defender's Block! This is just for a frontal assault. The true power of Defender's Block is for negating positioning and choice of attack target. It just happens to also dominate as a dumb, stand and take melee from the front block. The versatility is that, even if you do manage to voluntarily concede card advantage to the opponent, since DB is shared among the team each individual character has an effectively increased max number of blocks. That makes it even harder to deplete the blocks of any individual character. Which again... we should all know. That's why everyone uses it. I think you mean it is fantastic against wizards, but not as much as against melee. But blocks in general have been better against melee than against wizards for a long time now. Aegis is still fantastic by comparison to other options.
Yes, these work but they all require warping your build or a huge amount of positional setup. While it's easier to get around Parry, you also can't pick who gets to draw the card off of it. Defender's Block is annoying and widely played but I just don't think it's oppressive enough to warrant a change. Maybe it's because I don't run anti-block cards in my builds that I always just think of it as a controllable team Parry. Are people frustrated because they run specific answers to blocks with little to no effect? Or is it because it sees way too much play?
Not really. They just don't work in an Aegis-dominated environment. You would see people using all those strategies otherwise, because (even though there are cards you don't really care about) card advantage is a huge deal. To me it feels like it is cutting out a lot of the fun of the game. The Aegis is so incredibly strong against positioning (which already took a hit with the Team Run nerf, not that it wasn't OP) as well as against anti-block cards, that it seems the game is pushed into the way you play it. No anti-block cards, no using positioning to get around blocks, just concede the card advantage and (I assume) rely on your own blocks to provide equal or better card advantage. Which means everyone basically is forced to use the Aegis on any shield user.
In my experience, War Cry rarely saw play and Unnerving Strike is only played because Maquah of Ancient Blood is the best single token weapon. If you guess wrong on War Cry you are down a card, and blocks are such a small percentage of the deck that you usually will. It was primarily played to clear the way for an All Out Attacked Obliterating Bludgeon but even that gave way to cantrip back attacks. Unnerving Strike is better but prior to the Defender's Block spike it would still get blocked by Parry 50% of the time. At best you can get it through two thirds of the time against 66% blocks. And that's if there is a block at all. Again, if you whiff, you were playing an overpriced 8 damage attack. I was certainly underwhelmed with Shieldripper the brief period that I used it. Dodge may have played a roll in keeping anti-block cards from seeing play but I don't remember seeing too much of either at any point. This is what I don't understand. I don't believe Defender's Block is unbeatable so I don't see anything wrong with Aegis of the Defender being superior to other options, but it isn't even that due to the cost. I know you believe builds can accommodate the major token cost in the shield slot but I find fitting even a minor token on shields to be difficult for warriors. Priests have an easier time but they're usually support characters so Defender's Block fits. I don't believe powerful cards should be nerfed just so weaker cards can see more play provided they aren't absurdly broken.
Aegis is powerful. The question is it overly powerful for its cost? The answer may be yes, but it's important to keep in mind that margin of power difference in relation to cost is what is important. There will always be a best item in the game, the question is the item too good over the next thing in relation to cost? You've said everyone is using it at a high level. First, I know you're making a point, but if the goal is for true assessment that may lead to game change let's focus on being accurate over exaggerative. Do you mind identifying what "high level" means to you? In the last week or so I've been playing between 1400-1650ish and while I've seen defender's block often, it's absolutely not every match and if I had to guess it's probably closer to 50% at highest (that said, in attempts to be accurate I'll acknowledge it's not a pet peeve card for me so maybe I'm not noticing it as readily as you do). Since you mention math (and because that is one of my pet peeves), I'd like to note that the actual expected value here is about 1.8 times better not 2 times better. (I say "about" because effective deck size, via traits and card replacement, changes the numbers, but giving the benefit of the doubt 1.8x is about the best Defender's gets, the smaller the EDS the smaller that advantage gets.) {Edited because I was thinking probability of drawing at least 1, not expected value, remainder of this paragraph edited accordingly.} While a team full of Aegis does double the expected value of drawing DB over an individual drawing a parry off of the Buckler, this is the expected value that it's drawn, when we add in the difference in rolls to trigger, the expected value drops to only about 1.6x better to be drawn and block an attack before the block(s) is(are) revealed. Furthermore, this is at the cost of three major tokens over three minor tokens. Though I see here what you're doing looking at the potential defense of an individual opponent's character, it is a team vs. team game. This means you have to account in some way for the fact that Aegis vs Buckler means overall an ability to block at most 6 attacks vs. 9 in a game, with 6 card draws vs. 9. And if we go back to our expected value for a moment, what happens when an opponents character is KOed? With Aegis the expected value to draw and defend has dropped considerably for every remaining character, with Buckler it remains the same. All this is to say, the math generally supports the thesis that Aegis is better than Buckler. But, I'm not entirely convinced that it shows that the margin of difference at the increased cost is unreasonable.
This is EXACTLY how I feel about Toughness and Perfect Toughness. While Toughness is a Gold card Perfect Toughness is a common. I find Defender's to be OP except that you can work around it especially when it fails. Toughness can only be worked around via Sundering or armor destruction.
Not sure what you mean by this. I'm talking about a simple hypergeometric distribution. A team has 6 DB from the Aegis, while a character has 3 parries from the buckler. Effective deck size doesn't change anything, as long as each character has the same effective deck size (otherwise the numbers slightly change). The expected value for the number of DB a character will have at their disposal is exactly twice the expected value of the number of parry they will have from their buckler. In other words, the expected value of a hypergeometric distribution is nr/N, where n is the number of cards chosen, N is the effective deck size, and r is the number of the specified card. As you can see, 6 DB from the Aegis provides exactly double the expected value on a given character, regardless of deck size or even hand size. In the most extreme case which we can all imagine, if each deck was effectively only 3 cards, it would still be double; a character would be guaranteed to have 6 DB with the Aegis, and guaranteed to have 3 parry with the buckler. That's why I made the point about Aegis being better protection for a given character against the leading unnerving strike. True. Although in most ways 6 universal DB are even more protection against melee than the most specialized anti-melee shield, and can be drawn in twice the expected value on a single character, there is the issue of a face to face block knocking contest where nobody attempts to defeat blocks through any of the methods I mentioned earlier. Let's say everyone just hacks at the closest enemy from the front, and when a character runs out of parry they run away and nobody follows. Two things to consider then: the Aegis not only provides blocks, it increases the block ceiling per character. This can be used to decrease failure beyond the possible amount without it. Second, even in this scenario it is easy to get parry, or some other block/dodge you prefer, from another source. It is impossible to get DB from anything but a shield, and it is impossible to get the all-important 2 DB from anything but the Aegis. I don't like Perfect Toughness (should be only one toughness max imo), but at least each character can only use it twice, Sundering from the back (assuming no Aegis...) and armor destruction work to make a character vulnerable (can't do that against Aegis since all characters mutually protect), and the fact that it is guaranteed to be removed by any damage makes it predictable. The same character can use DB 6 times, and removing it isn't predictable. I especially hate the Aegis because I really enjoy the positioning aspect of the game, which Aegis makes a mockery of. It also discourages any interesting anti-block tactics because it does an end run around them. Team Run and Dodge were by all accounts OP, but I think they encouraged more interesting positioning choices and more fun games than the Aegis. The Aegis is so insanely OP against positioning and anti-block tactics that people are pushed into just conceding card advantage and relying on their own blocks to outdraw the opponent. DB is the last card in the game I would want to be the best card in the game (together with cause fumble).
This is the only problem i got with Defenders Block and it is the core of my dislike towards Toughness. At least DB tends to give itself away since it forces a certain positioning. And the same as toughness, depleting them is usually the only course of action you got, hitting harder once the majority of them is out of the way. Throwing junk at the blocks is definitely easier with wizards.
Okay not that Defender's needs any defending (it does so well by itself) while it is possible 2 have 6 DBs at once they are still single cards and defender's still has a dice roll and still fails sometimes. It also does require facing and while in theory if multiple players have a DB they can be back to back covering the entire field... and that is the point at which the real issue with DB comes in.. it (along with it's half-wit cousin Cause Fumble) doesn't require LoS. Now I have a feeling this was done to reduce computation for it from a programming perspective (admittedly I am not a programmer but I am pretty good at the logical statements that are at the core of programming and this clearly adds some extra if/then statements to check on in addition to facing which there is already a mechanism in place for), but I really think that is the OP part of it. I'd imagine that LoS would only impact 10%-40% of uses of DB in MP, depending on map (it would be higher in SP), but is it practical to develop a new function for 2 cards... Aegis is game altering in some ways, but it is limited by the fact that it is Epic (harder to get) and a shield (not available to wizards). Since I have 3 (or maybe 4) I have as much at stake as anyone in terms of Aegis, but I don't think it is worth a Major token. No other block is the same, but there are lots of blocks and lots and lots of shields when someone uses an Aegis or 3 (I did for a while didn't really like weak chops), it means they don't have other shields or as many blocks. As a team with 6 blocks when they could have 9 from the shield slots a sacrafice is made in the build that can show up in other matches. EVERYONE notices when someone gets the good cards against them no one notices when someone is stuck with a weak chop. I would not be heart broken if they altered the Aegis to make it only have 1 defender's (as long as they gave it 2 other universal blocks, my $.02, 1 Shield block and a Jarring to go with the DB) but I just don't see it happening... Now back to my old fiend Toughness. What makes it so vile is that it is a surprise 99% of the time (without elf scout or insight or a obvious manuver it is hidden until used) so you never know when you need to counter it. If I am playing against an all dwarf team even if I load up on sundering or armor destruction, I never know who to use it on or when until it is too late, so it is at best a guessing game. Is it awesome when you sunder a Toughness? You bet, is it even better when you boil a pair? of course! But this requires a LOT of luck. Now my issue is of course Perfect Toughness and specifically for use on wizards. Now I know what you are thinking, he's okay with the Aegis but not with Perfect Toughness (PT) aren't they essentially the same format for an item? Yes, but with 2 very important distinctions. First is rarity, Epics should be bestow more unique harder to get cards than other items of the type PT is common. Then there is the what are you giving up to equip this item. Yes the cost is appropriately high as a Yellow token. BUT there is only 1 other 3 armor Dwarf Skill, Trained Toughness an Epic, the other choices are very limited. For defensive minded Dwarf Skills there is PT and TT which I mentioned, then there is Advance Toughness 2 Jarring Blocks and a Toughness, a nice defensive choice for a wizard, but no one is clamoring to get more Jarring blocks in their builds. There are the 2 Duck skills (one an Epic the other Legendary) and then the only choice that is close is Solid Rock, which is a good item, but Immovable is not a block or armor. So with only 2 non Epic/Leg choices neither of which is as compelling as having 2 Toughness it makes PT a near must pick for a D-Wiz. I will admit that Rusty Armor is no one's favorite. But it is an armor preventing up to 3 points of damage, as opposed to weak chop which is not a defensive card. So what I see as the strongest possibility is one I don't see anyone agreeing to... it being a trait. Well not unless it lost its card draw because as a trait, it gets the draw up front, which would be fine by me. It would be quite a nerf since a big part of its power is the surprise. But I cant think of any other way to reduce the unfair nature without altering Perfect Toughness. So why not alter perfect toughness? It has been months since anyone did farming for it before you could buy level 18 commons. It is a common and no one should have spent real dollars to get 3, where there would be customer satisfaction issues. The other suggestion I made was to have it only stop melee damage, which i think would make sense from a role-playing point of view, but is not what I would want as this would be something else helping wizards who don't really need help with Toughness. So if IF we cant get PT altered... I think the final hope would be a Subtle Parry solution. Only have the card draw for damage 4 or less. This gives the Dwarf back a card if lost to a weak attack, but doesn't give someone prevention of significant damage AND a card draw.
You are entirely correct, I looked back and realized I was calculating the probabilities of drawing at least 1 block, not expected value. I edited my previous post accordingly. I'm not sure how returning to your discussion of how much Aegis can effectively boost any single given character's defense is a response to my note that the team vs. team aspect has to be accounted for.
