[Feedback] Upcoming Balance Change MEGATHREAD

I agree. This constitutes my version of a "meaningful decision" that Stexe often refers to.
I still believe MP and leagues offer a better chance at high rarity items than SP. SP is better for getting loot drops because MP battles tend to be excruciatingly S--L--O--W and have longer wait times between.
No system is perfect, but I like the Randimar changes. MP players who wait for what they actually need for their builds will have a better chance of finding it. If it shows up before they're ready they may choose to grind or pay, but at least it showed up. SP players will have a better gold sink than throwing 18k at brown chests in the slim hope that something decent will drop.

 

Ector have you played in the test server?

 

No, and I don't plan to. Does this change something? Everything I've said is valid, will I play there or not. All my points were already explained in details - please read the following posts. And if you plan to say something like "go play and see how wrong are you", please don't bother. Let the good players form the new metagame, and we'll see who was right.

 

I agree with you Ector on the loss of zone of control being a real issue, but remember this is still only step 2. To get behind you they would have to be right infront of you. So unless there is a cantrip combo e.g. Quick Run + NS it's not like ninjas are coming in from the darkness to backstab.
Again until this is tested you can't know what it will actually be like.
4 damage is lame and even with MF it is 7. With MF AND a 2nd frenzy, you are using 3 cards to do 9 or 10 damage.
Based on limited testing last night (2 matchs 1 vs Cardotron 1 vs Jacques anti-3DC melee elf team) the rare sparks getting penetrating looks like a real SOB. IF you have one of the spark traits you can do 7 or 8 damage penetrating with H2Block 2 then since these traits give arcane attacks hard to block deadly spark and punishing bolts become a nightmare. I haven't gotten the chance to test vs resistant hide or Grounding Plates. I would assume it would be like the (IMHO faulty) logic of penetrating where reducing all damage overrides the penetration. Making Resistant Hide something else that favors wizards.

 

I can say that I based on limited experience I have completely changed my mind about the Harness buff. I thought it would lead to tanks stomping across the board. Instead it is a nusance that only matters when you have 2 harnesses and a 3+ armor in a hand which is tough to get and takes away from other strategies.
You are free to state your opinion but I would encourage you to play in the test server, not to prove that you are right or wrong, but to give more real data for BM to evaluate. Clearly you have an interest in the game why not take the test server for a spin... with the everyitem command you can really create any build you want. If you want to wait and see how it settles that is fine, but then don't complain if you dont like the result.

 

Yes, I know it's only Step 2. But even Step 2 is enough to get into 2*2 victory area that you're trying to protect with two of your chars. And while you're right that the enemy will have to move close to you to backstab, this is still a very powerful tactics. Imagine the opponent's warrior is trying to kill your weakened char. You play Impenetrable Nimbus, but he just flies around your char and blocks him a way to escape on the next turn. He may even "outflank" your char with two of his chars now.

I can't know it for sure. But I can predict it.

7 damage is quite a good hit versus a wizard, who has 18 HPs maximum.

 

So you know more data points are more valuable, I'm not sure I understand why you would refuse to add data (unless you think the data points should be drawn from everyone's forum posts who are just "thinking" their thoughts). Also if you have a math degree you know that data needs to be drawn from a cross-section of the player population, which means good and bad players alike. So being a poor player is no excuse to avoid adding data.

It changes how willing people are to accept your arguments.

 

WTF are you talking about? D-Wiz have 25 hp and being down to 18 assumes no armor and there are still things like defender's block and cause fumble...
Nimble Strike (or maybe now nibble strike since at 4 points it is really a nibble) is not the only thing that allows you to ignore ZoC. The new Telekinesis can do the exact same thing in terms of position and so could anyone with Teleport Self, any free move, (elvish scamper!) or any other Fly effect.
So yeah it adds another way to stop someone from running, but it is still not as powerful as a step 4 damage 6, which often could get around ZoC and did more damage.

 

I strongly disagree with most of your points, as well as your approach to balancing. Saying that tangible evidence is irrelevant is completely absurd in my opinion. Without any sort of proof, what makes your wild speculation any more valid than anyone else's, especially as a self-professed "bad player." Scientific theories aren't proven to be true on the chalkboard, even if they may be DEVELOPED there. I think you are taking a very narrow minded and arrogant view of things, which also does not help predispose people to accept your opinions.

Anyway, as far as my personal take on things, I suspect that encumbrance remains quite useful. With encumber 2 alone minimizing every possible move option except special boot moves and elf base moves, and with gusts of war still sliding a total of 4, control spells are going to remain efficient and effective.

I also suspect a 2 point fly move is going to be less useful than it might appear. You have to be directly adjacent to any terrain to pass it, and it must only be one wide. Honestly, I would rate VP lower and much more situational because of it. With average damage that low, VP becomes largely a utility weapon that still costs 2 majors. Against non-vp warriors you'll get out dps'd and beaten down, and against control wizards all VP allows is ignoring terrain. Except in rare circumstances wizards don't care as much about zoc anyway. They can push you around and leave anyway. Plus against stacked armor, the only way vp is punching through is frenzy aura, not exactly the most reliable method. I'll be interested to see how it plays out on the test server.

Other than the sad fact that I'll probably end up tabling my VP for a lot of builds, I think all of the changes are solid. I'm much more comfortable with the changes now.

I like the item availability compromise as well.

 

Actually, that's not true. Statistics is collected differently in CCGs. If you want to know how good is build X versus build Y, you need to test these builds with the best players you can find, since you'll get the accurate results only with the ideal players that never make mistakes. Nobody cares that Timmy Boy cannot defeat 3DC at all since he plays very badly - that doesn't add anything to the real statistics. And we can call some deck "overpowered" only if the best player running it wins consistently versus most other Tier1 decks played by the best players as well.

If you really accept or refuse somebody's arguments based on his achievements, or participation, or something else, that's a pity Arguments don't change with the person expressing them.

 

Sorry... Didn't play wizards in MP for a millenia Still, 7 damage is more than 25% of the wizard's hits.

Telekinesis is a wizard's card that deals zero damage. You cannot have a lot of them. The same about "any free move" and Elvish Scamper. But you can have 12 NS for a single warrior.

It isn't as powerful as a step 4 damage 6 (which was clearly overpowered), but it's much more powerful IMHO than a step 2 damage 6 that could be shut down by encumbrance.

 

Isn't it valid data if Timmy Boy, self proclaimed bad player, can use a certain deck to wipe the floor with advanced skilled players?

 

An argument's presentation is, all too often, more important than said argument's content. Being right is great, and you would hope that all arguments you make are indeed correct. However, your ability to convince others that this is the case is actually more important. If your opponent is wrong, but is more convincing, he has won.

When an argument is presented in a manner which the listener finds offensive, they will naturally be biased against you, and are less likely to consider your argument calmly and logically. To assume otherwise for any real-world case would be naïve.

This is why you should seek not just truth, but also persuasiveness if you expect others to accept your arguments.

Edit: Thought I'd add some further thoughts in an attempt to stay on topic. Given the significant range on frost spells, I could actually see elf/human wizards see more play, as they can much more effectively kite. They would still be pretty vulnerable to team moves though, so I'm not sure.

I can see this meta taking some time to develop. It seems like it could prove somewhat complex.

 

Arguments don't change (as far as the cogency of said argument), but the authority from which one speaks greatly changes with the person expressing the argument. Who's argument about what catholicism says are you going to accept - the pope's or the dalai lama's? Who's argument are you going to accept about what makes a winning basketball team - the coach of the team that just won the championship, or some guy who runs a toy store? The examples can go on and on. If all you're interested in is spouting your opinion or venting against things you don't like, by all means this is the thread to do it. But if you want to effect change, you'll need to be willing to gain the authority of experience with the new changes. - And you might argue that that shouldn't be necessary, and maybe you might be right on that. But that won't change where things stand.

 

I don't understand the rationale behind the Mighty Hack and Mighty Bludgeon nerfs. I have never found these cards to be overpowered, and as far as I know items with these cards are not overused in high level competitive multiplayer. So why ruin a perfect damage progression? To illustrate what I mean, here's a list of the highest damage vanilla attacks at each tier of card quality:

Black: Weak Strike = 2 damage
Paper: Able Bludgeon = 5 damage
Bronze: Strong Bludgeon, Strong Hack = 8 damage
Silver: Powerful Bludgeon, Powerful Hack = 11 damage
Gold: Mighty Bludgeon, Mighty Hack = 14 damage
Emerald: Obliterating Bludgeon = 17 damage
Amethyst: Almighty Hack = 20 damage

You'll notice that with each increment in quality the damage increases by 3. This is beautiful from a game design perspective. It's so logical and intuitive. It gives players a very straightforward idea of what an increment in card quality is worth. By reducing the damage of the mighty tier, you're throwing the entire progression out the window. Are Mighty Hack and Mighty Bludgeon really so overpowered that you are forced to do this? In all of the balance discussions I've viewed on the forums, I haven't ever observed a single complaint regarding these attacks. Given that every other nerf was explained somewhat, the community deserves an explanation regarding the nerfs to Mighty Bludgeon and Mighty Hack. Unless there's a very good reason for these changes, I think they should be reverted.

 

As a control wizard player, I have to say the changes have swung TOO far in the other direction now. Not many control wizard players are represented here, with the majority of feedback coming from players that dislike control wizards. With all the changes, a control wizard build is no longer viable. There are too many answers now to the main control wizard weapons of encumbrance and enemy displacement. Team runs, team movement, movement cards, step attacks, and movement buffs all combined make it too easy for warriors to bridge the gap with wizards. Short Perplexing Ray is no longer a reliable counter to aggressive warriors.

Though the penalty to trait stacking has been decreased with the increased draw limit, the previous mainstays to the control wizard build like Runestone, are less attractive to play. Maybe that was the point, but with the lack of trait draws along with nerfed items, cards, and effects, there's little reason to play wizards. It seems that wizards and priests have been relegated to support roles for warriors, which I don't consider balanced. I'd like to see all the classes more or less on equal footing.

I've put some time on the test server to try and make viable wizard builds, but it seems even more of an uphill battle now.

 

From a math view, yeah it makes a clean progression irregular. Of course you are cherry picking a bit since trained bludgeon is Bronze at 6 and a standard bludgeon is paper at 4 and either would negate the equal progression you have laid out.
I have the feeling, that there was something niche about this tier that made a nerf valuable, my best guess being mighty hack being available in items that only require Blue tokens.

 

I don't think I agree with everything you say, encumbrance and displacement are still pretty potent, however you raise a good point about team moves.

Thinking about it more, I think team moves may now be too good, especially cards like sprint, team and team run. With step cards nerfed, these cards are head and shoulders above all other mobility options AND ignore encumbrance. It's very possible they represent a fatal threat to control wizards, but again, something that needs testing.

I do feel like priests have always been a support class for the other two. Whether that is accidental or by design, I don't know. I don't THINK wizards are in as dire straights as you might expect, but it remains to be seen. Hmm, just occurred to me, with the step nerfs, surging bolt/blast might be pretty good now.

 

@blackhand - Building wizards on the test server seems like an uphill battle? They were dominant on the test server and we haven't seen much playtest feedback since these changes. I encourage you to try them out and see if they've really been nerfed too much.

Everyone: yes, team moves and move, teams are very good. Are they too good? Playtest! Thanks

 

This is an intriguing thought. I'm interested in the outcome of adding more of those types of attacks to a wizards arsenal. After a team move has been used and the melee are in range of a wizard, instead of just walking away, they move away and deal damage. Of course, you're still in range of all step attacks...