[Suggestion] Lizard 's Laboriously Longwinded Rebalance Report (218 Cards Reviewed!)

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Greetings, gentle Cardhuntrians. Would you be interested in an exhaustingly long, exhaustively considered assessment of every playable card presently available in the game?

What's that? "Frickin' hell no, that'd take days to read"? Too bad - I'm posting it anyway.

So what makes me think my opinion about the game is so valuable it deserves its own thread? There's nothing very qualified about my judgments re: balance - I'm 1500 scum and I still try to play vampire elves sometimes when I'm really drunk - but I feel the novelty of a comprehensive balance assessment might in itself be of perverse interest to one or two armchair strategists out there. I looked at every card - thought very hard with my tiny lizard brain at how it measured up against other cards of comparable quality and how changing it might in turn affect the power level of other cards - and suggested changes accordingly. I also employed universally reviled items as a secondary point of reference, to try to figure out what feels weak and why.

Every playable card was considered, though if I thought no changes were needed I left it out of this assessment. If you don't see it in the report, then I consider the card to be balanced as it is. I did include a few unchanged cards that were benchmarks for certain card series (like Stab and Impaling Stab). I suggest a total of 218 changes - 37 of them nerfs, 14 of them neutral, and 167 of them buffs. There were a handful of proposed new cards as well, to replace vanilla cards I considered to be unsalvageable. I tried to make my changes both parsimonious and easy to implement with the current game engine, though I confess to losing my composure and asking for wish-granting, dual-exhaust, heatseeking unicorn ponies on a few occasions. Please forgive me these transgressions.

The report is in a list format rather than a spreadsheet - I found that a written list was much better for adding commentary, for organizing cards groupings and for readability. I initially wanted to put the whole report right here in this thread, but the character count limit told me I'd need to chain about eight posts to make it happen. I opted to migrate it offsite to keep it more unified - but I kept the highlights reel at least (the Dirty Dozen) for people to check out here in the thread. It contains probably 90% of what anyone would even remotely be interested in reading about, if they were interested in reading at all.

● Read the Report! (googledocs link) ●​

As one last point, I denounce all ownership of any of these ideas. I probably brainhooked 3/4 of them unmodified from the superior minds of fellow CHians. All parties are welcome to use them, not use them, alter them, claim them, attribute them, scoff at them or eat them as they see fit. If you eat them, please take pictures - that's all I'm asking.

 

I love you.

 

I've read most of your suggestions. I think a lot of them are very smart and innovative ways to make given cards better or worse in good ways. I don't know to what extent the balance changes in the pipeline are done, and by extension how much of this might actually be useful to BM, but I do know that this list says one thing for you, LP: you're good at what you do.

 

The "dirty dozen" looks very similar to my balance suggestions.

One thing I disagree with is Blind Rage. It is actually fairly harmful already. The only reason it is a bit strong is because you can burn move attacks without actually attacking to prevent the psychic feedback. I generally don't use Blind Rage myself because it is risky in case you are facing control teams or stall teams.

I also think you're trying to change a bit too much with the full document. 167 buffs? That's pretty crazy. I don't think every card or item needs to be useful -- there needs to be some sense of progression in single player.

Also, a lot of the suggested changes would require a lot of new functionality and re-coding. Not sure the game needs that dramatic of a change... I'd probably nerf about a dozen and buff about a dozen or two.

 

I like your writing style and your take on balance issues, even though I disagree with many of your solutions.

 

Agreed. The writing style is fun to read at least.

 

Thanks for doing this. It's interesting seeing someone trying to do the same thing I am, but from the opposite direction: I'm changing card values to match their stats while you're changing stats to match their values (this is most obvious with AotA cards that are strict upgrades to old cards at the same quality).

One problem: I'm seeing a completely blank page after the wizard traits, and if I click anywhere Google tells me there's a problem with the file and makes me reload.

 

No denying these problems, and the solutions proposed are very well thought out. But it is hard to agree with certain items unless their related counterparts get their nerf as well. Losing SPR would mean mage ceasing any chance to disable the MF-Stepmove play, so it would only acceptable when those lost some edge simultaneously.
Seen separately i cant see why short perplexing ray and resistant hide would need touch ups. Even nimble strike could remain as it is, as long as the steady boost by mass frenzy is taken care off. Free move seems like a horrible idea to compensate for a bit less base damage.

 

I'm still collecting my thoughts wrt folks' comment, but I'd appreciate if anyone else can chime in if they're having this problem. I was having the same issue on my desktop, then I checked it on my phone and everything loaded properly - I could click around and use the ToC just fine. So I just chalked it up to my Noscript being fidgety in FF, but perhaps not.

 

When I took a look, I only wanted to check if you had the same opinion I had about Desperate Block. My opinion is, considering the high cost of the block in term of token or the quality of the items with it, the roll should have higher chances like 3+ or even 2+ that I would prefer. Of course in this case Apprentice Ferocity should be nerfed by having a regular Block instead caus only this item would become too good. So I clicked on Blocks in the menu and I had the same error as Kalin had. I refreshed, scrolled down the pages till I get to the blocks and didn't try more.
Was using FF and I have no google account.

 

It is interesting, but kind of weird because of rounding for division and a way to calculate it out. Does it add interesting gameplay decisions or is it just interesting because it is different?

 

Undoubtedly!

Responding to these two quotes in tandem to prove a point - Apprentice Ferocity is a tokenless Dorf skill, 1xDesperate 2xBlind Rage. Squidy, you're saying that buffing Desperate Block to a power level it rightfully deserves would send this skill over the top - so what does that say about BR? All the 2x tokenless Blind Rage skills are considered pretty much the go-to choice for any melee dorf (I've even seen Raging Battler used on dorf wizards to respectable effect) unless you want to splurge a gold pip to go for some Toughnesses. I said in my intro I tried to use "universally reviled" items to gauge what was weak and why, but I should just as well have said the opposite too - there are some items we look at and say "yes please" without thinking twice or even briefly considering the alternatives. When that happens, I feel something has to be out of whack - and with Apprentice Ferocity / Raging Battler, is the culprit more likely the super awesome B-quality card, or the super awesome D-quality card? Hmm...

We can check it by the numbers too. Blind Rage is a trait (D+ by my estimation) with a base effect slightly better than Unholy Frenzy (D+), which conditionally self-damages the user (variable - we could round and say on average it deals 4 unpreventable damage over its duration to the user - E tier effect). (D+) + (D+) - (E) = a C- overall effect for a D card. I suppose one can quibble endlessly over the details - I don't know how much self-damage BR really averages, and who knows what a base trait card is exactly worth. But based on my best numbers and my intuition (the "yes please" effect), I thought it warranted a baby nerf. It might even be appropriate to nerf the nerf to discard only on taking 6 psychic damage, not 3. It was one of the changes I was most on the fence about.

It could very well be that some cards cease to need buffs as soon as certain other cards are nerfed. This is especially the case for cards with difficult to quantify effects - let's take Bash's Slide Back. If we nerfed all Step attacks completely out of existence, Bash attacks would start to innately pack a lot more utility as a keepaway tool. Right now I value 'Slide Back 1' at about 2 points on the quality scale, commensurate with Step 1, but maybe its utility would shift to a 3 or 4 point value in a new meta. I'll admit this much. But there are other cards - Able Stab compared to Tricky Stab, let's say, or any of the AoTA direct card buffs - that are very obviously out of whack no matter what standard you apply to them, and the solution in many or most cases is entirely manageable by manipulating base damages on the cards. I don't purport to know what Hard to Block 3 is really exactly worth on Tricky Stab, but whatever the value is I'm pretty sure it's not negative. I feel in these cases buffs (or nerfs) are unambiguously justified.

Also, the reality is I don't have a game environment to test limited changes out on. In the absence of that, the best I can do is go through the changes iteratively and make my best guess about what needs changing based on what's already been changed and what that's done to the hypothetical meta. My brain is tiny and I admit this is an imperfect process.

I'd strongly disagree - I'd say there is enough sense of progression through the accumulation of power tokens and the fact that the same token buys you more and more utility as you level up (A Level 15 accessory item give you more power than a Level 9 one for the same power cost). Indeed, having some cards be "not useful" is what makes some items "not useful" and is what actually inverts the sense of progression in SP - my single player wizards used Unstable Staff all the way to Level 15 because I kept picking up unbelievable trash like Opal Battlestaff or Electrum Staff as options for upgrade. Every item should be useful to some build or other - and useful in proportion to its level and to the pips spent on it. Electrum Staff isn't even niche, it's just bad.

Disregarding the ridiculous smoke terrain suggestion, I think the most challenging ideas I had involved the Interruptable keyword and the attachment of a single card to a player multiple times. Card copying would probably be problematic as well. But I think the vast majority of the other ideas already have close analogues with preexisting in-game effects.

 

Piecemeal and sweeping changes alike have their pluses and minuses. Probably the most sensible approach to a balance overhaul would be many rapid-fire small-scale iterations with 'nightly builds' on Test before anything goes live - and then one single release on Live when it's all said and done, including lots of changes in one patch. Incremental changes on Test would ensure no changes were made that didn't need to be made, while the large release on Live would be a clean break from the stale meta - give players a clean slate to try new things with.

I don't actually think it adds much in the way of interesting gameplay decisions at all! But I think it does balance the card in a flavorful way, which in turn contributes to interesting deckbuilding decisions - which I feel we are in much shorter supply of.

 

So no more ww? =)

 

To me it adds another layer of confusion because you have to calculate space next to blocking terrain and such. The whole "divided by targets hit" is confusing as well. I could definitely see some type of "knockback, if target is knocked into blocking terrain increase this damage" type things, but I'm not sure it is the same. I do love position play, but facing, zone of control, and line of sight seem like a lot of things to calculate already. Factoring in "closeness to blocking terrain" as well might be over doing it.

For design, I'm all about streamlining things. The most elegant solution possible to solve a problem is almost always the best. I think there are much better ways to give buffs to under valued cards than to create entirely new mechanisms.

 

This makes me laugh. Well done!

I like Crash as well. It makes sense to have your momentum turn into damage when your character hits a wall. It would certainly make some of those tight maps in the SP adventures more interesting.

 

Haven't read most the report yet, sorry.
But what I really liked, were suggested changes to Toughness, Nimbus, NS, R. Hide and MF.
Especially Toughness. Then it would actually have the word "armor" in it what it should have for melting/shredding/acid removal purposes. (Although it prevents damage from cards that say "this damage can't be prevented by armor" but meh.)

Edit: I also like +1 range to roots and Martyr Blessing's changes.
Edit2: Shrug it Off's change is also cool. It is way too pointless currently. Also, I'm not mentioning the small changes, they're not this important.

Ok, some things I don't like too: WWE is too weak there. I suggested the same effect but with more range. Definitely more range. Also SPR... no. That's halving the card's usefulness, that's too much. I agree it would still be ULTRA good with just range 2 but currently it's even more riddiculus.

 

OK so I read through your document... and let me start off by saying that some of your changes are pretty good. However, some of them are unnecessary (Flimsy Block for damage 3 or less? Really? What does 3 damage anyways??) and some of them are ... random. You completely redesign cards; sometimes the original cards should be kept, some should be swapped, and some of your ideas would be neat cards to be added to the pool. Some of your other card ideas should burn and never be seen again.

Anywho...
WWE becoming Cyclone completely kills the card. You have, in effect, almost turned it into Maze, Burst 1.
I think you are mistaken on Winds of War. WoW uses Slide which does not change facing, while Push would affect facing, not to mention Push doesn't force you to move in straight lines.
Illusory Bubble should have Range 0, Burst 1 or simply not have Range at all. "All adjacent tiles" is good enough.
Teleport Self is for teleporting youself. I'm sorry. That's the way it is. 3 movement is a good adjustment though.
Force Cone with 4 range is just a little too much for a C/bronze card.
I can't believe you did not touch Wall of Fire. I mean seriously. Not to mention this leaves Runestone effectively intact.

Your ideas for Surging/HTPD aren't bad, although the vanilla 4+ roll really hurts.
Why didn't you touch Parry? Now there's a broken card.
Weak Parry is a nice touch. Seeing as people normally lead with Weak Chop, etc, to test for blocks, this makes Weak Parry potentially useful.
Also, Desperate Block for 6+ damage, 3+ roll is a great idea whilst Weak Block damage 6 or less is a terrible idea. The point of Weak Block is actually to prevent it from triggering on 5+ damage attacks.

Reaching Swing with Range 3? Count me in!
Nimble Strike having 3 move? Yes, people. It's necessary!
IMO, Skillful Strike should be Unblockable and Feinting Strike should be Hard to Block 3. I mean, if you can write on your opponents shirt with your sword without them knowing you must be good!

Impaler Should NOT be increased back to 2 damage. I'm sorry.
Cleansing Burst >Mass Cleanse is insane. I guess.
Unholy Frenzy is damage 1, not damage 2. So if you "notch the damage up by one" it would now be 2 , not 3 damage.
You're wrong about Sparkling Cloth armor. The longer you keep it, the further to the right it gets, and the less likely damage is to trigger it. And that's how it should be.
Also, your suggested card text should be Move 3 Keep.
Solid Mail/Crafted Mail: What's with this healing nonsense?

One thing you may not realize is that some "weak" cards exist intentionally, to balance out certain items, and not every last one needs a buff.

My other problem is that you have tried to re-design some cards completely rather than adjust the original card.

Some of your card ideas I really like, and yes they would be cool to include in the game, but if they replace an already interesting (and balanced) card.... not so much. (EG Fright). I believe some cards should be replaced with weaker variants until more balanced items can be introduced with the original card (just like Fireball)

For drawback traits, you seem to have made some devastatingly bad while others do almost nothing. (Why the heck do you think Squeamish is balanced?) Look at Superstitious for example. For SP it is still a nasty drawback, while in MP it will rarely trigger, and even if it does, only 1 card?

Some of your suggested game mechanics are obtuse and unnecessary compared to what we have currently.
I don't like: Having copies of any card being stacked as attachments. It doesn't match any other game standard and it is confusing. You should either suggest a counter variable or use the Duration as a counter for cards like Martyr's Blessing.

Crash is too complicated. Plus it won't work with cards like Muscle Through where you can move 2 up, 1 left, etc. Having an effect like "Crash X: Deal X damage to all adjacent characters at the end of this move" would be much simpler.

That all being said, a single Reliable Mail will prevent a ton of damage from various Force/Bash/Crash effects.

Charges should ignore encumber effects as opposed to increasing their move distance. Even if it is 8 squares in a straight line it's a little too much on some maps.

I think it would be pretty sweet if Charging or Bashing people against the wall inflicted extra damage. I always thought that should be a mechanic.

I also like your changes to Free Move. Ignoring Encumber effects and terrain gives them enough punch to be played on most maps.

I don't think that you understand Fly very well. And applying it to Step attacks? Madness! Even if you take ZoC into account, having people Flying and Teleporting everywhere is a bit extreme.

Interruptable has to be my favorite new keyword though.

Thoughts! Rants! Blarg!