Swiss-style *SPEED* Tournament Info / Sign-Up!

Stexe, I think you and I are just thinking about this at different levels here. I appreciate that you're trying to run a tournament by yourself and I want to thank you again for the work you put in to this. All my comments about the drop system were based on my own perception of an ideal system. I realize that the realities here might limit those options.

Here's the crux of my point: Imagine if Challonge or a similar site offered the option, when setting up a tournament, to allow players to self-drop during the tournament. I am arguing that that is a good feature that should be used. Do you disagree?

 

Didn't read through all your convo.
I know in MtG and other similar games it's OK to leave before the end if you are doing poorly.
This is a bad habit. Everyone should be required to play all the games.
Participation is important, not winning as they say. In chess it would be very rude to leave before the end and all mind sports games should be as honorable.

 

Feleran, I have to disagree with you for a few reasons.

1. I don't play tournament chess but I can't imagine that it would be bad form to concede a match if you were heavily loosing and down to a few pieces.
2. Your argument conflates dropping between rounds of a tournament and conceding a game. I gather that you are against both but they're different scenarios.
3. Regarding conceding a game or match: Chess has almost zero luck or hidden info, MtG and Card Hunter have a good deal of both. Sometimes in MtG I just draw a lands. Sometimes in Card Hunter I don't draw attack cards when needed. There's nothing wrong with saving yourself some time and conceding those games. It might not be ideal if you're trying to learn to be a better player, but as long as I concede gracefully instead of doing something trollish like stalling, then it's fine. We're here to have fun and if that's not happening then no one should be required to play.
4. Regarding dropping a from a tournament, my argument is similar in that it's for fun and people should do what they want so long as it doesn't screw up the tournament. I outlined how MtG allows drops without screwing up tournaments in my earlier posts.

 

I meant that leaving between rounds shouldn't be acceptable.
You may agree to dissagree ofc.

 

I think it would be a good idea for them to have it... but I wouldn't use it. It messes up the tournament and can give wins to people who simply "get lucky." Had I known Abraxus and Abbus were going to have problems I would have dropped them from the tournament and re-matched everyone which wouldn't be problematic at the first round. However, dropping someone mid-game leads to a lot of issues due to the way Swiss works (which could result in re-matches which Swiss tries to avoid).

 

Conceding if you're heavily losing in Chess is acceptable, but generally people play to the bitter end since you never know if the enemy won't make a mistake. Yes, Card Hunter has a lot of luck, but when you average it out over 12 rounds it averages out (this is why MtG games are best of 3 -- something I'd do for Card Hunter but really when you're doing 12 matches it should still mitigate luck heavily).

I'd say that the idea that "tournaments are fun so you should only do things that are fun -- if it stops becoming fun you should leave" is the wrong attitude. Technically MtG drops do screw up the tournament slightly. It is minor and heavily depends where the person who drops was placed and who they are matched up against, but it could give someone a place they don't technically deserve.

Also, I never suggest conceding or forfeiting. You never know how things will play out and there are MANY matches I've sworn I lost only to ultimately win. There is a reason why I'm ranked #1 and have a 10 Standing... I always play to the bitter end! =)

 

By the way, I'm almost done organizing the prize structure. The way it works out I'm not going to randomize who gets what, it will just be a prize for everyone (although you get more based on your standing and the top 3 get more).

 

Chess tournaments (at least all the sanctioned ones I've played in) typically have a short Swiss seeding round, followed by elimination, so you can leave as soon as you're out of the running.

I do have to agree that if I had gotten some bad draws early during the tournament, it might have been a drag to try to finish out three hours. Dunno if there's any way to fix that aside from the hybrid swiss/elimination format.

 

That's what I did last time, but the "short Swiss" was still 3 hours long. Didn't have time to prepare for a multiple day event again so I tried to make it all fit in a single day this time.

Even if you had some bad draws early in the tournament you would still get prizes based on your placing... so it should average out. Granted, I only lost one match to really bad draws (against Qivril who got 30+ damage on a warrior in like one turn). One or two I lost due to time (talking and explaining while playing isn't conducive to a speed tournament). I'd think that when you're dealing with 12 rounds it isn't as bad as when you're dealing with 3 to 6 rounds as a single loss isn't an immediate loser. Second and third place (that tied) both have 3 losses...

 

Sure, I've had games like that. I've also had games where I'm iced out and all my opponent has to do is sit on the VP squares for 2 turns and I don't have any outs in the deck (I'm simplifying here but you get the idea). I might try to bluff something but if there's no bite then why drag it on... There's a balance to when to concede.

Exactly. One of the ways to help with this is flatter prize structures as I mentioned earlier but even then it can be frustrating. I speak from experience having won and lost many MtG tournaments (particularly when playing limited formats where your deck can have more variance). Swiss/elimination hybrid like chess would also be a good way to mitigate this issue I think.

Anyway, thanks for the good discussion everyone. I think I've hit my points enough. Food for thought all around.

 

@Stexe - Just wanted to say thanks for running the tourney! I was unavailable to play in this one, but love the idea of tournaments in CH and appreciate anyone that will put the time and effort into running one.

 

Prize Distribution looks like this:

The top 4 players will have the choice of getting what type of chests they actually want (converting Epic into 5 Mag and choosing from Base or Expansion chests). Everyone else will get their chests from Base.

Thanks for everyone participating and neoncat and jade303 for donating some of their winnings to ensure everyone who participated got a prize! =)

EDIT: jade303 decided to donate his winnings as well.

 

And many thanks to Stexe for organizing! (Neoncat for extra prizes!)

 

Prizes have been submitted to Jon and should be given out in a few days after the new version comes out. The new version will allow Jon to give people chests without manually altering the database or something so that's why he is waiting. But don't worry you'll be getting them soon!

 

Sorry for late feedback but due to work I have not been online much since the tournament. This was my first CH tournament except the leagues and was brilliant fun so thank you for taking the time to organize it Stexe.
First I think that challonge was definitely a good option as it was extremely easy to use even for someone who was unfamiliar with it.
The time limits on games I did at first think were a bit too short as i lost maybe 2 or 3 early games before someone in chat mentioned about animation speed, something i hadnt thought of and thereafter I dont think my time elapsed once so I find this 1 hard to judge but in the interest in of fairness maybe in future more senior players could mention this before hand to those of us who maybe do not think outside the box as much .
The draw limits didnt really seem to come into play that much i think i hit mine once and saw an opponent hit theirs maybe once or twice in the duration of the tournament. I do like this feature though personally espcially in conduction with speed tournaments.
Rare and below I think worked well to balance everyone and still allow variety in the parties used as it was quite a refreshing change that I dont think I faced the same party compostion twice which is definitely welcome after facing the same 3-4 builds repeatedly in ranked multiplayer.
No WW/WWE or NS made this tournament the fun it was and I dont think there would be one person who participated who would argue for their inclusion, WW/WWE espcially, and that speaks for itself.

So thanks again Stexe and theres my two pennies for what is worth. First tournament and a top ten finish is all well and good for me and now i have a target to beat for next time.

 

Yes, tournaments are fun. Was my 1st too.
IMO there could be "real" tournaments too. Possibly with a shorter time limit than 20+20 minutes but with exactly same rules as ranked play.

 

Technically NS was still there, but it is very rare. Glad you enjoyed it and yes, I do think I should have probably given newer players a few tips (like speeding up animation and playing a match before hand so you get the explanation of draw limits while not in a game) -- but at the same time I did offer the maps and gave ample time for people to practice. I only saw 3 or 4 people practicing, unlike some past tournaments where many more were practicing.

Thanks for the feedback. =)