Poll on upcoming Swiss tournament item restrictions.

I'm curious what people would prefer to play in regards to item restrictions for the upcoming tournament I'm running (https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/tournament-discussion-swiss-tournament-1.5190/)

Right now the only other item / card restrictions are:
- No use of Whirlwind / Whirlwind Enemies. You can use items with those cards, but you can not use WW/WWE if you draw them (doing so results in an immediate forfeit of the match).

If you have any questions or concerns feel free to ask.

 

I like Singleton because it is less like other things we have tried. Let's see what it's like!

 

Hmm.. this is a weird poll because you have two variables and therefore should have 4 choices imo.

I think "one of each item" would be close to impossible to verify, leading to potential cheating or human errors, and I would have wanted to vote for "Epic/No limit" (with maybe additional card bans, like Nimble Strike and WoW) but there is no option for that.

 

I like the restriction idea, it'll kill the 3DC decks, which I hate.
Beside I'm experimenting a decks with restriction atm and it's doing rather well, so it'd be my best bet to win the tournament!

 

The "one of each item" isn't more impossible to verify than using Legendary items. Just look at the item name of the cards and if you see that name again on a different character then they have cheated. Plus, I'm going to have everyone submit their builds and 1 sub character before hand to double check. Granted they could cheat in theory and maybe get away with it because of the time restrictions and such, but I hope we have some trust here. If they did cheat and get caught they'd obviously be banned from all future tournaments too.

The reason there are "two variables" is because "rare with only 1 of each item" would be *really* limiting and probably result in a ton of Adventuring parties more than Epic with 1 of each. I don't want to simple do Epic or lower again because I want to mix it up and see how this plays out as well.

I was thinking about banning some other specific cards, like WoW / NS / SPR, but I'm unsure on how the game would look with those restrictions. Plus, I want to only limit the changes to a few things, not have everything completely different from tournament to tournament. That way we can make some conclusions about what is and what is not working.

 

How about a choice of neither . but seriously 2nd one seems ok as long as no one need to post builds and have complicated stuff!

 

People who want neither, or some other option, are missing the point. stexe wants to try these two configurations, and is polling to see which is them he should try first.

 

It does open up better cheating/human error fail possibilities. Instead of simply looking for legendary items, you now need to look at every item and somehow remember which card of which item has already been used. Unless you are Rainman, you're going to have a hard time doing that, especially with a 11 minute timer.

We could of course pretend that everyone is honest and cheating does not happen, but the only way to be sure would be to not have deckbuilding restrictions where cheating is possible. This is why I think that card bans and character restrictions are two of our best tools because those two are very easy to spot and can be proven with a single screenshot.

Asking for more options in a poll is not "missing the point". That's how polls usually work. Good polls always have a "way out" so that everyone can respond to them, like a final option along the lines of "something else, respond below". This away the results won't be skewed by people forced to pick a choice they didn't like.

If the plan is to try both of these, then the whole poll is pretty pointless. Why not just pick the one you like the best and go with that first? It's not like this is some major decision if we will see both options in action regardless. And if the goal is to see what kind of deckbuilding restrictions the community wants (from all possible choices), why not give more options? Now it's pretty much asking what we want but giving only two options.

 

People don't need to respond to the poll, for starters. In any case, the goal is to see which of the two options Stexe should use for the first tournament he runs. So the poll is to help him pick the one people like best and go with that. You've described exactly what he's doing and exactly why he's doing it.

 

SLG, you are focused waaay too much on enforcing the rules and preventing cheating. Who cares? It's not like the winner gets real pizza or something.

 

Eh, also, once the API gets updated it'll be pretty easy to check what items were equipped in a battle.

 

Who? :-P

So you remember all 237 Legendary items by heart? I think that takes a lot more skill than remembering what items the enemy is using. I almost always look at what item every card is played simply to know the enemies' deck better and what I can expect they might play. Yes, in an 11 minute time limit it is short, but I don't think people will cheat because the cost of getting caught (banned from all future tournaments and basically being an outsider to an already small community) is a lot more severe than what they hope to gain (like $10 in pizza if anything).

I could have a "pick something else" but then that just dilutes the pool. If you don't want one of those two, just don't vote. I'm going with one of those two to mix it up from the last tournaments and to see how it is received. What other options are there that are balanced for new players, encourage interesting builds, and haven't been done before?

 

I'd like to see a tournament with Priests Only and/or Elves Only. >>(In the case of both you can use all priests of any race OR all elves of any class.)
There really aren't many options left, but you could also do 1 character/ 2 character matches (instead of 3 characters).
Would be interesting to see what comes out on top in a 1VS1 scenario.

 

After SLG's tourney, and reading over your poll options and subsequent responses, I am going to abstain from voting if these are the only 2 options and if wwe/ww being removed is already decided. I'd personally, after some reflection, like to see a tournament with all of the current items and rules in play and see how people perform in that format, with the resulting strategies that people abuse being highlighted as points of abuse after the tournament and the issues brought to life.

I agree with SLG too that generally if a poll is going to be fair, you should include more ranges of options, or not get upset if people don't end up participating etc

 

I think that would be kind of boring and stale. You want limitations but not restrictions to limit interesting builds. With restrictions like that I'd suspect many builds would be samey. I could easily see 3 war priests being the main builds. And not limiting Legendary items means whoever has the best Legendaries would do far better (some Priest Legendaries are obscenely strong in comparison to others).

As for 1v1 scenarios, I'd suspect that dancing warriors with heavy hitting items would reign supreme. It is hard to stop an NS + Oblit Bludg Warrior with any single character.

I'm not upset if people don't participate. And WW/WWE has been overly problematic in the game since the start and in the previous Peasant Tournament. It would most likely be exacerbated by the access to Nimble Strike and higher move cards.

WW/WWE being removed only helped to make SLG's tournament more enjoyable by far.

As for other options, what would you suggest I should have included? Boiling it down to 2 (or 3) choices is the best for polls as you can get more meaningful numbers instead of a poll that caters to almost everyone.

 

I agree with you re: wwe/ww, ns etc. I think they should be removed from the game or altered in intelligent fashions. I think a good way to highlight how broken they are is to run a tournament permitting their usage, and watch what unfolds. As to being enjoyable, I think tournaments would be great with no WWE/WW, or nimble strikes, or a variety of other things. The only issue is that when you remove wwe/ww it kind of magnifies and increases the op-effectiveness of things like nimble strike/trait cycling control wizards.

WWE/WW are fantastic counters to Nimble Strike. Nimble Strike is much more broken without having wwe/ww as a counter. That's why any tournament that gets run without wwe/ww will probably see melee cleaves doing extremely well, unless the map favors control wiz.

As to poll options, I was just wondering if you could include things like:

* No rule changes. (WW/WWE ok)
* All Rarities.
* Rare and above tier only.
* Uncommon and above tier only.

 

You have the normal ladder to show abuse items (WW/WWE, NS, SPR, WoW), don't think you need a tournament for that purpose.

All rarities (or anything that allowed Legendary) would really limit the tournament from newer players. Those with Vibrant Pain and other amazing Legendary items would most likely stomp all over the place. Saying "uncommon and above" just seems weird... that would exclude like what? Bejeweled Shortsword and maybe one or two other items? It wouldn't be very different from the already existing game.

The point of the tournament is more to see constraints that are different from what we see in the current ladder format. With no rules the winners of the tournament should be the highest ranked Elo players in ladder. The only difference being having fewer number of games and thus being even less accurate and more prone to luck (such as the single elimination tournament SLG ran which I feel exacerbated the problem).

And I disagree that WW/WWE is a fantastic counter to NS. WW/WWE is a "counter" to everything in the game, period. They are just horrible cards that remove strategy and planning. NS is one of the few things that actually helps counter WW/WWE because after a whirl you can use NS to reposition yourself. It is a Dash when you want it and/or an attack when you want it.

Your alternative options don't really add anything to make the games more interesting and open to players. That's why I didn't include a ton of choices. I've yet to hear of some really good choices that A.) haven't been done before, B.) are open to newer players and long time players alike, and C.) allow interesting choices in a variety of builds.

As for map choices, I'm still considering what to do. I'll probably run another poll similar to this one (with 2 or 3 choices) in a day or two to see what people want to see. I have an idea on what I want to do, but I'm still a bit torn between two or three choices.

 

I'm going to pass on your tournament. Your responses seem to indicate that your mind is made up on everything and anyone posting responses to you, that aren't what you've already decided, somehow has ideas that aren't valid. That's fine, that's your choice. I don't have a desire to participate in a tournament like that.

 

Uhm, what? I'm asking for ideas that work. Saying "only uncommon or above" simply doesn't work -- how is that any different from no restrictions? There are very few competitive common items that don't have higher rarity equivalents. Having no restrictions boils down to the same as the default ladder. I'm just giving you an explanation on why I didn't include it. That's fine if you don't want to participate in the tournament, but clearly my mind isn't "made up" since I'm asking people what they think and hosting a poll. But whatever you say.

 

Just because you have a poll up, does not mean this is a democracy. What we have here is two ways of how you think the tournament should be, and the community gets to vote on which one of your visions becomes a reality. And if someone posts something different, you will quickly point out why they are wrong. This is why I think this whole topic is pointless. You should either make it like you want it, or let the community decide, not have this weird mixture of the two.

If we wanted a real community decision, you would first have a discussion where you collect all the ideas, and then have a poll where all those ideas are included. This way everyone gets a voice, even if that voice is contrary to what you think. That is how it's supposed to work. Not give only two options, and tell those who do not like either option, just "not to vote".