Tournament Discussion (Swiss Tournament #1)

I'm interested in running the next tournament in a week or two and I'm curious what people would like to see.

My own thoughts are a Swiss tournament played over the course of 3 or 4 hours. Limiting items to Epic or lower (maybe even Rare or lower), banning WW/WWE, having builds registered before hand (with maybe 1 extra character that can be swapped in / out to mix things up), and having random maps for each stage (a small pool of well balanced maps that will be randomly determined before the each game). Matches would be graded to determine ranking based on winning and end score as a tie breaker.

Maybe even limit items to "only one of a specific item per team," which could make things more interesting.

To keep things reasonable I think we'd still need to have 10 minutes (or 11-12 minutes to account for loading and calculating first turn position) time limit.

Additionally, I'd like to see the top 4~ winners play in a series of matches at a possible later time that people can spectate and enjoy. The previous tournament was so rushed that only the last 2 matches were actually to be spectated (luckily they were very tense and exciting). Although I don't think this would be a deal breaker, just something that might be discussed.

Any other thoughts?

 

I like the "only one of any item per team" rule. That would sure make things more interesting.

Does the tournament have to happen in one day? It would be nice to hold 1 round of swiss per day instead of all at once.
Also, putting aside the Final Round of the tournament for a later time is an excellent idea. It would be cool to culminate the final 4 players in a round-robin for total domination.

It's times like these where I wish that Card Hunter had much more advanced capabilities for game/scenario making. It would be cool to fight against a human player and a pair of wandering Ogre Bruisers or something controlled by the computer at the same time.

 

1 item per team will suck as only things you will be able to run is 1 1 1 t. Maybe ppl with crazy item lots can afford but many others can not get any decent items up. Also IMO 10 mins is a bit 2 short from what I saw last 2 tourneys. If opponent got a load of armor or you have a lot of traits it sucks. at least like 12-15mins imo should be there.

 

Definitely 15 minutes, 12 minutes at the lowest, rather than 10. Very few people need more than 15 minutes, a lot of people need 10-15.

 

-Why not a item restrition but not on the team but per char? so you could run for example 3 wiz each with 1 winter staff, 1 runestone etc etc.
-A handicap(drawback)+item restrition (1 per char) would be cool
-I would keep the 10min timer

 

I noticed that this is a new event idea, yet you are calling it tournament #3. I'm guessing you see this as a continuation of Peasant tournament and what we had yesterday, which it really isn't. Would it be possible if you had some kind of unique name and started the numbering from 1 to keep it separate from the rest? For example, I'm at some point going to organize more of these (or hopefully find someone else to run them), and I'd like to keep it separate from other events so that they won't screw up the numbering.

I think our goal should be to have many different types of events, not just have someone after each tournament take the torch randomly and make the next event how they personally would like it to be. This would only lead to a confusing mess.

 

It would work if it was multiple days (or even the same day over multiple weeks), but I'd have to gauge player interest. The longer you space it out the higher the chance people can't make it, forget, or choose not to make it. That's overly problematic from a tournament stand point (less so with Swiss format though). If enough people want to spread it apart I'd definitely be willing to see how that goes. And yes, I wish Card Hunter had more advanced scenario stuff. They are working on co-op... so in theory we will see something more advanced in the future.

I'm not sure people will only run 1/1/1 (Adventuring Party) if limited to one item of each type. Yes, people with "crazy items" can afford more... but it is hard to make a game interesting without some type of restriction. Does anyone else think that having only one item would be overly restrictive? I'm not sure why someone having a lot of armor would make the time limit more difficult -- I suggest increasing the animation speed to 8 or 9 if you have trouble. I run 3DC and I'm usually fine on time -- the few times it gets down to the wire is usually because I was over thinking something.

I'm hesitant to increase the time simply because it means tournaments run longer and there is less chance for people to participate due to real life things interfering. Maybe I should run a poll or something, but at 15 minutes per player then matches can theoretically be 30 minutes... which means you have to schedule for at least 35 to 45 minutes (to organize after the game). Assuming you're running a Swiss format you need: "The minimum number of rounds to determine a winner is equal to the binary logarithm of the number of players rounded up (3 rounds for 8 players, 4 for 16, 5 for 32, and so on)" -- so assuming recent tournament turnout that means 5 matches minimum or 3~ hours while the last tournament was 2.5 hours. Remember, this would be the MINIMUM time for a tournament. The longer the tournament the more difficult it is for people outside of "normal playing time zones" to participate. I honestly wanted to do a minimum rounds + 1 for the Swiss and then have the final 4 do a round robin thing at a later date. That means you'd need to schedule 3.5 to 3.75 hours for the tournament. If people are fine with playing for that much time I'd gladly increase turn time... I'm just not sure on what the turnout would be.

Having an item restriction per char wouldn't really change much. It would just remove edge cases where someone has multiple Epics. It *might* be better for the format, so I'm up for considering it, although I doubt it would change the game much.

I'm not sure requiring a handicap item would be the best. Since most matches last 5 or 6 rounds, there isn't a guarantee that a player will draw the negative things -- which means the game boils more down to luck than anything else. Plus, there are a few handicap items that are simply hugely better than others (Runestone).

Maybe, but honestly I think these user run tournament things are simply stepping stones and learning experience for Blue Manchu to implement something official. Having it be constantly player run seems overly taxing and amateurish. I'm trying to explore options that I think would make an interesting gaming experience and something that Blue Manchu can get feedback from.

 

Yes, but we have no way of knowing when the built-in tournament system will be implemented. It could be months, it could be years, it might never happen. As soon as we get something official, I will stop all tournament planning and running. But the possibility of having a built-in tournament system at one point is no excuse for running events half-assed on the forums today.

And while we wait for BM to make a move, I'd like to keep my single-(double)-elimination tournament separate from the rest of the events like this one here. I'd like if everyone planned and ran their own events with their own brand names etc. This way it makes more sense to people who are participating in these events.

 

Okay, I guess that works. I'll just refer to it as "Swiss Tournament #1" then? You should change your tournament name to something other than "Card Hunter PvP Tournament #1" then as well, since that isn't very descriptive and makes it sound like other ones are not PvP tournaments.

EDIT: Farbs can you change the title to "Swiss Tournament #1" or something?

 

Works for me. It describes the event very well imo. One other option is to have some kind of brand name like the Peasant by Flaxative.

Yes, definitely. It's too generic right now because I couldn't come up with a good name, and the name ideas I got in chat were pretty crazy I think I have a good name for it now. Something that describes it well and lets me switch between single- and double- elimination without changing the name.

While you're at it, could you please change the title of this topic to: Card Hunter Elimination Tournament #1

Thanks.

 

I would participate, it sounds fairly legit. After lobby chat yesterday filled with "Flax should run the next tournament..." oops I've been reconsidering my own thoughts and options for hosting tournaments, and will likely be trying to throw something together after you Stexe. Because right now we're just trying out different formats to see what works and what creates what kind of environment, I don't think I want to make any rules suggestions.

 

Well, there's something called "League" being worked on:

 

I don't think that 1item/team restriction will 'force' people to go 1/1/1, but it will add some variety to builds, especially DCW, who will have to be a bit more original.
Hehehe.... only 1 ElPN/RoLi/PeT/RuS/BLo/TrS/SWi/GrGB per team..... Now that sounds great.

Now here is an interesting idea: no pure drawback cards allowed. (Hybrids like Blind Rage don't count). So Squeamish/Vulnerable/Combustible/Wimpy/Obvious Maneuver/Demonic Miasma/Slowed are all banned. This eliminates a lot of staple items like Crusty Helm/Runestone.... actually it eliminates a LOT of helmets and arcane items. Isn't that interesting....

Also, you can run a single elimination tournament over several days with more ease than a swiss, since the players who win their matches (and therefore still have a chance to win the whole thing) are probably going to show up to each round! As long as the players in each round complete their matches during that day, all is well.
For double elimination, even the loser's bracket have a shot at winning, so you can expect people to show up until they are eliminated.
Swiss is great if you want to play several games (for enjoyment), win or lose. In Swiss every player gets to play X games but players with a bad score may decide to quit after a round or two. Swiss also does a decent job of ranking the players, not just deciding the winner.

 

Or even more extreme, how about no traits whatsoever? (And Demonic Miasma is not a pure drawback, because it's also an attack.)

 

I will participate if there's a restriction of 1 item/team and 15 minutes/game.
I'm not sure about banning Legendary items if you already have the 1 item limitation, but let me think more about this.

 

Yeah, let me check if I have more than 1 of any good legendary....
lol

 

Eh, I don't think that would work. Traits aren't so powerful they deserve banning and it doesn't really make builds that more interesting.

The problem is that some Legendaries are just absurdly strong (Vibrant Pain, Bewlin's Baffling Bauble, Wym's Lavastaff) that they can really make it a "who has X item wins."

Any other ideas?

 

Too many rule variations. Set a hardset of rules, advertise, and make sure your maps are fair.

Ban Legendaries and WW/WWE felt fair to me. Though I am total newb in competition. But it was approachable for me as well having only played the game for about a week, I had a good assortment of Epic stuff to utilize.

I don't mind pre-registering with your builds and having a sideboard of one character. Side board between rounds is fine. This of course, organizers involved don't participate which is pretty standard for that sort of thing.

Swiss events for anything can take awhile. Lots of time is spent setting up the matches. Have it over two days, Sat/Sun. Of course it depends on how many people join.

15 min games, please. 12 if I can't get that. I don't understand your ranking system,

This isn't swiss. This is more Round Robin style. And honestly, Round Robin would work well here, granted you had the RIGHT amount of people. Then you can do a top cup and single & 2/3 matches.

A separate chat for event participants would also be extra groovy. IRC is stupid easy, and it keeps things from cluttering the site's chat for those that aren't interested.

 

What do you mean too many rule variations? So far the only ones I'm thinking about adding is "limit of 1 specific item per team" and "must pre-register 4 characters" -- everything else is the same as before.

To me, these tournaments are more of an experiment to figure out what works best for an official tournament system. They are designed to push the boundaries a bit and explore the game in an organized competitive environment.

Swiss doesn't actually take that long. It would be approximately the same length as the elimination tournament -- just that players would be constantly playing the entire time.

The matches being graded is only there in case of a tie and to possibly determine byes. It is included in Swiss tournaments because there is no elimination, you're playing for points. I'd rather not have people tie and then have to have additional matches that take up more time -- thus some other metric to break ties. In theory they could still tie on the tie breaker, but we'll see what happens if it comes to that.

Round Robin simply takes too long unless you have a very small number of players. This might be possible with the 4 finalists or something -- I'm still considering it.

IRC is easy, but many people don't really want to be hassled with it. Maybe if Farbs created a Flash based IRC on his website that people could go to or something? Even then I'm not sure on the benefits.

And a lot of people are asking for 12 to 15 minute games... but it really makes the tournament just last much longer. Every minute you add to the clock you have to add 10 minutes to the tournament... (1 minute on the clock * 2 players * 5 matches). Maybe I could have the finals be 15 minutes, but honestly I don't feel 10 minutes is that bad. I play 3DC (the most thinky build probably due to needing multiple LoS's) and I don't have a huge problem with 10. I think as you become more familiar with the game you'll need less and less time. I am thinking about increasing it to 11 minutes though to account for load times, trait cycling, and first turn evaluations.