Honestly, how it's going to affect SP is one of two things I'm most concerned about. 1st) Farming items is already tedious as hell and the FS with Inspiration is pretty much the only thing I've got to get through the low-mid levels as quickly and painlessly as possible. 2nd) FS decks are a pain in the ass to build correctly and this nerf looks like it's going to kill and possibility of FS being a viable build.
The fact that this is basically the only thing that got balanced a long time after the draw deck fix is very disheartening. There are myriad more issues with MP, rather than a hypothetical build, that should be getting addressed. If there was some super ridiculous build, possibly with 2 knives of st blenko, etc, sure, nerf it. But fix the MP for balance please. Vibrant pain, nimble strike, trait cycling, etc have been broken for a long long long time, to dev silence. This is making me lose confidence that the potential of the multiplayer is going to be realized in a timely manner.
Most of the itens that have inspired presence, the other cards aren't very good. Basically that itens are only played because of inspired presence. Very few people play inspired presence and that number is going to decrease with this nerf. Most of the decks I see playing this card are firestorm decks and firestorm deck aren't at the top of the leaderboard. If you use wirldwind or sprint team agaisnt them, you are probably going to win, if you don't, you can still win. This nerf is just going to do firestorm deck worst. I doubt that people at the top of the leaderboard are going to play this "new" inspired presence in their deck also, because it it is worst now and because normally the other cards in the itens that have it, are bad.
Hmm.. I've never used that combo myself. I don't think it is needed. All you need is a bunch of drawf wizards with a deck full of damage I don't think this is going to kill the build. They still get to keep their attack cards AND they even get more healing. I am talking about the 2 wiz 1 priest version. ------------------------------------------------- I think the the reason for some of this negative feedback we're seeing here is that players assumed that this was a patch that was supposed to fix the current problems in MP, and when it did something completely different, people assumed the devs don't know what is happening or don't care. This is not the case. As explained earlier, this patch fixes a potential future problem that doesn't have anything to do with current meta, but could have caused a huge problem later. We do not realize this because we have not seen the problem and do not have all the facts. I'm pretty sure the devs wouldn't nerf Inspiring Presence unless it was absolutely necessary. Well see later if this nerf is a good one.
Balance isn't just about where the game is, it's also about the Developer's understanding where the game is going. There will be additional content released for this game, and you can be sure the developer's have a better idea what that content will look like. But if you stop and think about it for a while, additional content will likely include new, higher-level, items. Those higher level items will likely include more copies of powerful cards that currently exist in limited numbers on a few cards. So while it may currently be difficult to put together a deck to abuse inspiring presence, that may not always be the case. Inspiring Presence was overly powerful in the wake of the other changes to card drawing, some of us were calling for it to be changed at that time. It wasn't a critical change at the time at the time, it's not an easy card to obtain in large numbers, but I'm glad to see a change finally made.
Priests already non-viable, and this weakens this card too much. Though I suspect things are being balanced in the light of new cards and items we have not yet seen. I think there's a likely a new expansion coming, and that will probably feature a card that punishes the oppo for cycling, thus avoiding the need to nerf them in a very elegant way. This would also explain why something hasn't been done already. We might also be about to see better items with Entangling Roots as a way to hurt Nimble Strikers. Overall, I suspect the reason there has not been a quick change to balance the meta is that the slow change of dealing with it with an expansion creates more options, more strategic depth, and is less clumsy than changing existing cards. It's merely the small team size that means they couldn't have done this sooner, I suspect!
The easiest way to make Priests a viable character (esply for soloing/mono-partying) would be to allow them buff themselves (i.e. "may target self" for Frenzy/UnHoly Wellspring), since they do not have the ranged/area attacks of Wizards nor the Martial Skill buffs of Warriors... so I'm wondering why this has not been implemented-- or has it already been tested in alpha/beta? Regarding Engtangle, variations or higher quality versions of it can be introduced with increasing range/area-effects-- like the way Wizards have Ember, Fire Fingers, Spray, etc.-- I mean, I get that Priests are suppose to play like a hybrid of "Warrior+Wizards+Healing/Cleansing", but the healing/cleansing abilities don't really make up for the inability to fight (by buffing themselves) or use magic (at wide-ranges/areas)...
I'm a bit dissapointed with this change, because I was expecting the 3DC to be nerfed, as it's the clear dominant of pvp. It seems everyone is playing with 2 or 3 dwarves wizards, and that is beacuse it also seems that it is the only way to win matches. So, if the devs care so much about players to be encouraged to try and play different kinds of decks, why noy nerfing that build? Playing with elves is suicidal, same with playing without wizards (unless you have VP) so there is no variety anymore. Personally, I started using a firestorm deck because I found out this was one of the few chances to win against a 3DC deck. Of course, I made that change after getting tired of losing against 3DC with my two human warriors and human priest (that I enjoyed a lot playing with before everyone started using the same build), and I hated playing with a 3DC of my own (some people say it's not funny to play with a firestorm deck, then tell me what is the fun with playing with only five cards in your deck: WoW, SPR, Toughness, Frost Jolt and Wall of Fire). Finally, ScaredLittleGirl, I will say that I have respect for you for creating a new way of playing this game, but what I read with your comments is this: I play a 3DC, and it's frustrating to play against the very very few items and cards that can counter my deck, like firestorm, whirlwind and whirlwind enemies, so they should be removed, because it's not funny to play against those. Do you think it's funny to play against a 3DC? It's not, is very frustrating. So I think we should be sincere here and make clear that the only thing that should be nerfed is the 3DC, as it's the dominant now. If someday a firestorm type of build is the dominant like today it's the 3DC, I would say the same thing. The goal here is variety of builds, at least I think so. Otherwise it's just dull.
It's funny, I don't play 3DC (I mostly play elves), and even stopped using cold and WoW entirely for a while, and I agree with SLG's take almost entirely. I suppose I'm more extreme. WW(E) and Firestorm are horrible cards that should be removed from the game (along with team runs ignoring encumbrance, trait cycling, slippery shield needs a nerf etc). They require zero skill and drastically increase the luck involved in the game, as if actually drawing cards from a shuffled deck wasn't enough luck already (also a big reason why traits need to be fixed, because they drastically decrease the luck factor). As a thought experiment, consider a deckbuilding game. Each card has the name of a die, like D6, D8, D12 etc. You and one other player first build decks containing the best dice you can get. Then you draw an initial hand and take turns playing cards. If you roll a higher sum than your opponent, you win. To me, that's what WW(E) is like. I also get the impression (from some posts* and lobby chat) that SLG would be fine with 3DC being nerfed somewhat IF it meant the game supported more builds and became positional/thoughtful less random. Though 3DC isn't as dominant as you think. Finally, if you've played MtG, control is generally frustrating to play against. * for example https://forums.cardhunter.com/posts/49582/
I can speak only for myself, the reason is the feeling of overkill on a card that goes from reliably doing something to unreliably doing something a bit worse. I don't mind changing my build (quite the contrary, actually), I just dislike doing so because a card I liked got partly taken over by the all-demanding RNG gods. I fully trust the devs when they say a nerf needs to happen to prevent a future calamity like the one we recently had with 2nd circle charm and I trust that future cards\items will have a balancing effect on what dominates the meta right now. Despite some plaguing issues in the meta, I don't feel as strongly about any of them as other people do, in fact all I really wanted (and asked for in different threads) was a glimpse into the devs' philosophy of change making and I'm happy to finally get it, albeit several weeks later, as presented by jon in his post above - so thanks for that.
Jon, thanks for explaining your balancing strategy. Knowing it helps quite a bit in expectation management.
Obviously I don't agree. Look at the Paladin build that he has recently posted. He has a wizard loaded with WWe. So, he always wins by luck? If he does, then he is the luckiest player in the world. We need to start differentiating WW, a clear luck-based card, than WWe, that is a formation breaker. We can't talk about WW including WWe as if it were the same card. Secondly, it has been said a lot of times that these cards doesn't have counters. Well, for warriors and priests there are shields, and pretty reliable ones like slippery shield. And for wizards (and also warriors and priests) there is the inmovable trait. I never understood why 3DC doesn't use Untrained Stoutness instead of Perfect Toughness, taking into account that WW and WWe are one of the very few weaknesses of that build. 3 traits to contribute to the cycling engine, 2 of them cover you from this particular weakness, and the one that is supposed to be the bad one isn't as bad, as they always can move using WoW.
Firestorm build is hopeless under the power of resistance hide. DWC is still op with ice, wind, and toughness. Why someone want to nerf a magic will hurt the owner?
Sorry, folks, this is going to be a long one. For those who want to understand my thought process, please read my full post. For those who want to see my suggestions and weigh in solely on those, skip to that section. Response, Thought Processes, etc. it REALLY IS the fastest way to go. Fewest clicks, least frustrating, yadda yadda. 9 out of 10 doctors recommend FS for farming. The build really doesn't need more healing, at all, and definitely doesn't need that extra +2 healing to go to the enemy when they're within range. It's got PLENTY of healing with 3-6 Holy Armors and the healing cards on the items Insp. Pres. already has with it. What it does need is the ability to get fuel fast enough that it doesn't starve for damage output. Draw pulling draw, or draw pulling a healing card which can then have a 50/50 chance of another draw is important. See, what people, possibly the devs as well, I don't know, I'm not inside their heads (yet), don't understand is that the FS build is FAR more complex, both to play and build, than people think. People think it's just spamming the same attack over and over, but it's not. The deck requires careful attention to, and balance in, when you're attacking, how much you're attacking with, when you need to stop, when you SHOULD stop for maximum damage output, when and how often you need to heal, and when (if ever) you take the risk to use a buff to increase the damage output and/or use a Demonic Power. With this deck, it's not a matter of how much, it's a matter of how many times you can heal (this part, I'm pretty sure the devs understand) and if youre' lucky enough to get that extra card. Yes, I'm annoyed that, in using 3DC my win rate skyrocketed as compared to my/Flax's Vamp Evo build (which is more fun to play). But more than that, I'm annoyed because a build I enjoy using is, for the reasons I explained above, going to be broken by this unless I put hands to 8+ Legendaries, all of which are copies of themselves. (4x St. Inspiro's Knives, 4x Azghul's). I've spent hours and hours trying to get even a single Azghul's without any luck. As to the Devs not being aware /caring about the current issues with control decks, I doubt this is the case. I agree that they they do care. Card Hunter is their baby after all. As an editor, I know what it's like to put countless hours into something, only to realize, deep into ongoing development, that there's a fundamental flaw that needs to be fixed before it becomes a noticed and game (or plot, in my case) breaking problem. I believe that the reason they're not tackling 3DC with this update is that this is one card, where as 3DC is going to require changes to multiple cards and that's going to require some seriously painstaking work to balance all the cards and items out so that control isn't completely broken, but is changed so that it balances out with regards to other deck strategies. Suggestions Drawing a single card and discarding it unless its' an attack card is going too far in one direction, and not far enough in the direction to make sure the card remains playable/desirable. Each point is separate, but hey, mix and match for a better solution if it works! Make Inspiring Presence like Pathfinder, draw until you've got an attack card, discard everything else. - Easiest solution, but would also give a MAJOR boost to VP decks, so not a good solution. Alter Ins.Pres. so that it doesn't give the caster a card, boost the healing to 5 and I could go either way as to whether or not the healing affects the caster. - This limits the draw potential of the card while forgoing the punishment the dev-proposed change would institute on pulling a non-attack card. The card is called Inspiring Presence, so really, why is the card inspiring the caster anyway? Answer: It really shouldn't, especially from a flavor POV.Additionally, the flavor text specifically states "The limitless power of healing recognizes no allegiance." I friggin' love this quote, btw. Why, then, would it cause a discard of anything but attack cards? It's not called Inspire Violence (not a catchy name, either). Alter Insp. Pres. so that it heals 5 (or leave it at 3), and draws 2. See below for further detail/suggested options. Draw a card and discard it unless it's an attack card. Draw one more (and keep it regardless of its type). Draw until you get an attack card, discarding anything else, and then draw one more (and keep it regardless of its type). This limits the draw potential of the decks drastically by most often discarding cards with draw potential, but gives an extra card as consolation. Odds are that any Insp. Pres. that would have been drawn is going to be chucked in the dust bin with this. Draw one card and discard it if it is a Holy Draw Card. Draw one more (and keep it). Draw until you get a non-Holy-Draw Card, discard everything else. Draw one more (and keep it). Alter Insp. Pres. so that it's 5 heal and, on the triggered draw, it auto-discards only any drawn Holy-Draw cards. This would hamper the draw potential of the card itself, limiting the potential to only the 50/50 of Altruism and to unholy draw cards. This is probably the best suggestion. Alter the game so that, if a player is unable to draw two cards (plus move) during his/her draw phase, s/he loses. Alter the game so that there's a per-turn draw limit. I would very much like a response to why this hasn't been implemented (aside from casual games where you have the option on SOME maps to limit the draw). It seems to me that this would fix a ton of problems with FS, Draw, AND 3DC. Seriously, please someone explain this to me, I'm very confused about it.
Well, now that I have used this build a bit more, I can tell you that it has problems with teams who have 2 or 3 warriors (2 warriors loaded with armor and a priest to heal is the worst combo for this build). My losts were against that kind of teams, and half of my wins were by close. But, on the contrary, my results against 3DC teams are pretty good. I don't remember losing against a 3DC team with this build (it's logical that it has better results against a 3DC than against warriors because I designed thinking about playing against 3DC decks). That is maybe because 3DC don't usually use resistance hide (they prefer Robe of Lightness that provides you with two useful traits that helps the cycling), but I have won against the ones they do have resistance hide as well. How? Well, firstly, it's very unlikely that they draw resistance hide with more than one wizard, so you can keep damaging the other 2 while you have your priest to heal and they don't. Secondly, as I said before, I don't have the right weapons to rely entirely on firestorm, so I use firestorm to lower their life, but then I have to use the usual control wizard stuff, like using snow and moving them around with telekinesis, so that I can complete the win by using the victory squares. It's not that I don't care about victory squares because I use a FS build, because FS, at least with the weapons I have now, is not enough.
To echo everyone else in this thread -this is a bad change that renders an already niche card/strategy mostly useless -there are other things that are actual problems with MP (and it sucks that we lose the functionality for single player, like when the 2nd circle charm got obliterated) -I'd like to know what this theoretical gamebreaking build is and why it can't be beaten by whirlwind or sprint also on a personal note two of the actually good legendaries I have contain inspiring presence and it is unfortunate to see them become dreck like
While I appreciate and thank you for sharing your design direction, I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with it. Simply adding new "checks" as methods of balance will create more problems than they solve. Being afraid to nerf or change the game for the sake of angering fans is the wrong mindset to have. Look at some of the most successful games in the world, like League of Legends (LoL). They heavily nerfed things that were problematic and people still support them. Constantly introducing new content in an effort to weaken older content as a "path of least resistant" is ultimately detrimental to the game's future. See the "power creep" video from Extra Credits here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw Your rational that someone should feel safe in having an item in their collection means you think it is more important that people trust current game state than a healthy game meta. Imagine what would happen in LoL if they never nerfed Champions or items. They would continue to add new Champions as counters to older ones, which would just lead to them having to release new counters to the newest stuff and so on. The power creep that slowly would go on would destroy the gameplay and ultimately kill the game more than a few angered fans that "their favorite Champion or item got nerfed." Yes, it is important to feel that something you worked hard for won't be rendered completely useless, but do you really want a game that devolves into "if you own X item you win otherwise you will lose against it"? I was extremely heavy into the balance discussions regarding LoL for a long time (I started playing in the very early beta and made friends with most of the balance staff). Their design philosophy is that whatever it takes to make the game state better, more engaging, less frustrating, and ultimately more fun is key above all else. There will always be people who complain about a decision (usually regarding nerfs), but ultimately you need to consider what is best for the long term health of the game. Especially if you plan on having Card Hunter be around for multiple years: balance the current things, then add new elements and re-evaluate. Iteration is the key for balance and right now the game is very stagnate as there have been nearly no attempts to balancing things. In LoL you had balance patches once every 2 weeks... in this game? Barely once every two months. Right now there are a few things that are just killing the game state and that is primarily WW/WWE and NS. Additionally, you have some of the highest rated players for your game saying that other things are problematic (SPR from turinturamba and WW/WWE + NS + WoW from PaladinGP) and simply ignoring that feedback is costly. LoL balances much of its game around feedback from their best players -- those who understand the game state better than any designer. Your hardcore fan base that is spending hundreds upon hundreds of hours in the game has to mean something at understanding the game state. Regarding the specific change to Inspiring Presence, I think that is a good direction. It isn't overly problematic at the moment, but definitely could be on fringe case things. But saying that is the only change you're making is disheartening to hear. The proposed changes in my balance thread (https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/balance-balance-suggestion-list-january-2014.4967/) are moderate and do not take away from what makes people enjoy certain cards (outside of changing WW/WWE which is currently the most problematic of all things in the game). Small tweaks like reducing SPR's range to 2 and NS's movement to 3 will ultimately not make these cards useless, but will just bring them in better line with others. I suspect people will still use tons of NS + SPR + WoW... it just won't be so single handedly dominating in its current state. For those complaining that the main problem is 3 Dwarven Control Wizards (3DC) then I suspect the people at your Elo level simply don't have Nimble Strike because they've climbed much higher after getting it. Ask anyone who has gone from no Vibrant Pains to one or two. You'll instantly shoot up to 1500 or so. I just don't see how any new cards can not simply be a "counter for existing OP cards" and result in people choosing between either running current OP cards, or their upcoming counter cards. That kind of dichotomy remove meaningful decision and interesting gameplay into a rock-paper-scissors problem except worse. Finally, if you want to reduce the alienation of players -- allow them to sell items with nerfed cards back to the shop for full value for a month or two afterwards. Yes, this would require some set up behind the scenes, but would alleviate many problems with balance changes. Don't like that NS got nerfed and you have a VP? Sell it back to the store for 2500 gold and buy a Legendary in Randimar's that you feel is worth it (maybe also increase Randimar's offerings a bit more as well). Why not go ahead with minor nerfs and see what happens? If the game state becomes problematic you can always revert. That's the beauty of a digital game!
WW/WWE are both problematic. Just because WW throws your own troops around doesn't mean it is "random." You know you have it in your deck, can choose when to use it, and can build around it. Simply putting high mobility cards (Team Move + Nimble Strike) negates any of the negatives that WW has on your own guys. Most 3DC don't use Untrained Stoutness because Immovable is sometimes just as good as it is bad. Having your only guy without it being thrown away is very bad. Plus, 3DC works on Trait cycling which means any buffs you have are most likely going to be gone quickly. Toughness is simply a free card AND damage negation -- it is one of the best cards in the game and that's why it is just far better to have. Honestly, your suggestions are very convoluted and not elegant. Their proposed change to Inspiring Presence will be a nerf to FS builds, but FS builds are really frustrating to play against and boring. There is little counterplay and a high luck factor. This is coming from someone who ran FS builds to 1550 Elo (Wym's Lavastaff and Savage Curse legendaries help a ton just like my tons of Inspiring Presence items -- I have almost a perfect item build for it). It is definitely not that complex to play compared to things like 3DC and using WoW. Either way, the biggest problem isn't 3DC... the top players don't use it. The biggest problem is WW/WWE + NS. There is literally no counterplay to it because WW/WWE costs the enemy team 1 to 3 cards, and NS is essentially 2 cards in one. That means you have a HUGE advantage and can literally jump all over your enemy with no problems. At lower Elo's 3DC is problematic, and I'd definitely like to see WoW and SPR taken down a peg, but they really aren't the biggest offenders.
I use inspiring a lot, and i think this is a great way to nerf it.. I more than once used an inspiring to get a new one, once it even happened 4 times in a row, making my opponent leave the game :S
I disagree with the nerf, because this will also affect the Single Player campaign. In my opinion, any balance to Multi Player should be done by enforcing additional rules, for example: - A team may have at most a total of X inspiring presence (X = 3) - Each character may have at most Y traits (Y = 6) - Each character may have at most Z Whirlwind/Whirlwind Enemies (Z = 1) - Fireball is forbidden (so we can have items with fireball to use in SP) Using this method, the cards and the items will never have to be changed again and the SP can be balanced separately from the MP. Right now, balancing MP will unbalance SP and viceversa.
