My proposed areas of multiplayer that need balancing

I would balance the game in the following manner:

1) Vibrant Pain - https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/vibrant-pain-and-how-to-fix-it.4466/

2) Nimble Strike- 4 move, 6 damage, can be buffed. 2 for 1 card, absurdly strong, breaks the rules.

3) Card Cycling - too imbalancingly strong at the moment.

Drawbacks are not really drawbacks, and items with no token cost and 1-2 traits are much better than their equivalents in certain scenarios, resulting in an overpowered composition involving 2-3 wizards.

4) WoW - provides too much utility and completely marginalizes improved telekinesis.

I would suggest making WoW not work on teammates, and only allowing improved TK to work on teammates.

5) Priest class balance compared to warriors/wizards and itemization.

Priests have awful itemization in comparison to wizards and warriors overall now (mostly due to card draw nerf which was necessary). Nerfing the card draw was necessary, but priests need a careful balancing to be on par in terms of selection as compared to the other classes.

ex: Soothing Darkness - nearly completely useless in multiplayer. heal 4 every round WHILE being encumbered. IF anything, this ability should INCREASE your move ability while active. Why in the world would you voluntarily incur encumbrance to only heal 4 per round? Additionally, this can be knocked off by 3 other buffs/debuffs. This ability is ridiculously underpowered as implemented and is on several gold token priest items.

Here's a list of all items with soothing darkness: http://wiki.cardhuntria.com/wiki/Cards/Soothing_Darkness

Almost every item with soothing darkness is almost useless in multiplayer when compared to items of same token cost.

6) Drawbacks in general (some are not actually 'drawbacks' at all) are imbalanced.

Certain are absolutely unplayable: brain burn, mind leak, large weapon (situational on map/card cycling and or arrogant armor availability), loner, ill-fitting armor (unless using holy armor item for firestorm), cowardly (unless priest support ONLY) , defensiveness (unless some gimmick melee build).

Certain are ridiculously useful for cycling and don't provide real negatives that matter: squeamish, vulnerability, combustible (can hurt, but much much more useful than negative), wimpy, superstitious (if you kill 1 person you can usually win the entire match),

7) Valuation of items...

With 1-2 traits (Robes of lightness is a prime example) and valuation of items based on token cost to more appropriately reflect their real value, rather than their on-paper numerical value as suggested by the Blue Manchu system.

Wizards have certain items in dire need of nerfing or as I call it, balance, whereas priest have terrible items generally for gold tokens at least that need buffing.

8) WW/WWE - potentially game-breaking

This negates some of the tactical and strategic decisions made by players and injects too much randomness [imo] into a multiplayer that conceivably is supposed to reflect skill; thus the elo rating system.

9) Racial balance; particularly dwarves, then humans, then elves.

Dwarves are too strong generally, humans can be abusive with some of the card cycling abilities / team sprint, and elves just really can't compare overall.

10) Rapidly, aggressively patch overpowered or broken cards/items that cause imbalances.

Very easy to observe both empirically and statistically. Only Blue Manchu has access to winning stats and various other %s but players can view ladder progression.

11) Fix Cardotron. It makes playing the AI unfun and a coin flip on wins.

The concept of an AI opponent is interesting on paper. But having to play an unfun, ridiculously overpowered AI opponent when you are at higher rating is counterproductive to enjoyment of the game. Yes, I can toggle off the AI. But, the solution should be to design an opponent that doesn't routinely use purple/green cards rather than just fix the AI or give them a few op abilities.



Devs / People who think I'm complaining:

With all of that said, I understand devs are busy. However, a good portion of us are paying customers (blue manchu can check my account to verify), and have a considerable interest in playing this game long-term. I want to play a game that is close to balanced, rather than one in the beginning stages of MP balance, and I want a playerbase that is numerous; which is only possible with a well-balanced compelling MP.

Game remains fantastic, but the MP needs balance in a timely manner and the more blatant broken things I've listed should be fixed sooner rather than later before more of the playerbase decides the balancing speed/direction is not the right one.

 

Not in total agreement with the WW reasoning but the rest of this is a good post. +1

 

I'm probably one of the few players who's played Superstitious at 1300+. (Personally, I haven't ever encountered anyone else with it...)

When I draw Superstitious, about half the time it costs me the game. Of course, I'm running it in an unusual build, so it might not affect control wizards as much, but they don't run the card anyways.

 

I've tried it in a 3 warrior comp and a 2x priest 1 war comp. It doesn't really matter if the person who has superstition on is intelligently built. Its at least controllable.

 

I'm surprised you don't mention what I consider to be the most broken drawback of all: Blind Rage. Boosts your melee damage by 2, easily avoidable self damage, and because it's a drawback it's probably lowering the level/rarity of the items it's on (Raging Battler).

 

Can confirm on superstitious, its really not that bad. Usually how you lose with it is that you forgot your dude with 5 cards in hand had superstitious. Even pearwood (with fright) is playable since fright does not effect telekinesis and u can still move your dudes. Yes blind rage is OP as hell. Not a drawback at all if all your attacks are steps! (hint hint)

I am curious that you didnt include SPR in the list. Do you feel it is a balanced card?

 

I think short p ray is very very strong, but doesn't rise to the level of the other cards. I think that if you eliminate the cycling to the extent its pervasive, then short p ray draws are much less common. As is now, when half your cards are cycling traits, its very abusable. When people can't run the trembling / boots / robes / electromancer / 2-3 runestones and 1 bloodstone locket crap that is pervasive now, short p rays will be balanced imo.

 

Blind Rage is very strong, but closer to balance than the other issues I've pointed out. Almost always it requires token expenditure and can be knocked off, whereas electromancer is the best trait in the game probably (based on cost)

 

This is a thoughtful and succinct list, and I agree wholeheartedly with all of the points except for number 2.

I think Nimble Strike is a pretty reasonable (but totally undervalued) card. Items with one or two copies aren't the problem. The real problem is Vibrant Pain, and to a lesser extent Lochaber Axe. Because it's undervalued, those items granting more than two copies multiply how undervalued it is and thus result in a much more powerful item. If those two items didn't have so many copies of it, I don't think it would be such a problem card. I know the devs balancing strategy is generally to nerf cards and not items, but I'd hate to see such a fun card removed entirely (like what happened with Fireball).

It's the opposite of the situation with Barge. Sure, having a barge on an item doesn't make it useless (just like having a nimble strike or two doesn't make an item completely op). But having an item like Hand-Held Ram with 3 barges on the same item is terrible, because that's multiplying how overvalued the card is. Just like having an item with 6 Nimble Strikes is ridiculous, because that's multiplying how undervalued the card is.

 

I agree with every single item on that list. It's nice to see that others look at Card Hunter the same way that I do, and have the same vision for the future. It tells me that I'm not crazy, or at least there are other crazies like myself

I wouldn't call WW/WWE "game-breaking" though. I would call them "lame" because they add an unnecessary layer of luck in a game that is already heavily luck based. We don't really need cards like WW/WWE in Card Hunter. Something along the lines of "Mass Maze" would be much better. If WW/WWE had to exist, I'd rather see them used as a special card in SP or in something like Control Squares.

If I had a chance to add more, I would include Short Perplexing Ray in the list. Although it's not the biggest problem right now, I think it's way too powerful, and it would be really easy to fix by simply decreasing the range by 1. It would still be a very powerful item, only more balanced. Toughness is also a bit too powerful to my liking, but there are other topics about that.

While I do think that Nimble Strike needs a nerf in either damage or range, you are right on the money about Vibrant Pain being the main issue here. A couple of Nimble Strikes here and there are not a huge problem, but when that enemy dwarf keeps spamming those Nimble Strikes round after round, your soft targets like wizards have zero chance unless you play control.

 

One thing you may want to consider, is making a 'guide' like I did SLG (although technically you already have) to highlight how easy it is to reach a certain elo rating using questionable tactics. It serves the duel purpose of further highlighting the issue to the playerbase and devs, and also, with more people playing this on ladder, will result in more people being able to either poke holes in this and find a counter (I don't think a reliable one exists that can work against warriors too) OR result in allowing the counter build to be played exclusively.

Also, for clarification purposes, devs are more than welcome to weigh in on the state of balance of both VP and Nimble Strike, so that the playerbase understands why exactly this item is balanced in the opinion of the devs, or what will be done and when, or at least give us a headsup that there is an acknowledgement that anyone anywhere will admit this is an issue that needs to be looked at in the future.

 

I felt like SLG's 3DC thread basically was that, and if not, Stormy's peasant version definitely is. People are pointing out how terribly easy it is to 'break the game' with wizards.

 

Wizards didn't break the game before, and you are right his post was basically that, as I've acknowledged. If it wasn't wizards, it would be warriors right now due to Nimble Strikes. Any comprehensive fix has to address multiple issues at once to address the larger problems, not the symptoms. Wizard domination/warrior is a symptom of bad itemization for priests, trait cycling, drawbacks not being effective enough, and warriors having the single best item in the entire game [card advantage problems / itemization problems].

 

I think we're on the same page on most of these issues most of the time.

 

As usual I agree to your posts Bailey. I belive most, if not all of these problems can be rooted back to a less than sensible skill valuation (as in how much the game values different skills). I still can't see why it is impossible to change something that was crafted on the game's toddler stage; I feel that the devs are building the game around the core problem, rather than fixing it. If I hadn't loved the game's potential, I wouldn't be writing this, but it comes a time in a game's life when potential just isn't enough.

 

As an addendum, I'm going to compile a list of specific items for multiplayer purposes that I think are overpowered, too cheap or undervalued, underpowered, too expensive in token cost. I'll edit it into the main post. If anyone would like to contribute some suggestions I'm going to use the following format, so just copy it in your response.

Specific Itemization Issues

Overpowered:
1)
2)
3)

Underpowered:
1)
2)
3)


Too Cheap (Token Cost):
1)
2)
3)

Too Expensive (Token Cost):
1)
2)
3)

 

I also totally agree with all points. The only thing I'm uncertain about is the proposed WoW/Imp. TK changes. At the same valuation, WoW still has more range, more movement, and the utility of a point of damage. I'm not sure removing Imp. TK's ability to target the enemy is necessary.

I definitely think the devs need to take more of a look at the cards that don't see use though. I think game devs in general tend to balance by nerf because that's where the most complaining comes from out of the community, but it's my personal opinion that people love to see their underpowered and useless stuff buffed.

While I'd like to cover specific itemization issues, it seems like the devs are much more willing to change card effects rather than card valuation or item card composition. Thus, I thought I'd just put forward my personal list of cards that need a look, though I'd like to hear everybody's else's thoughts on them.

Delayed Draw:
Accelerated Thought - Definitely overvalued/underpowered, been discussed before. Compare to Demonic Power, one more point of damage to your team for card advantage that would take Accelerated Thought 2 more turns.
Unholy Energy - Uncertain, silver is better for delayed draw, but for some reason I usually like items with Accelerated Thought better.
Consecrate Ground - I would say arguably equivalent to cleansing ray, but valued vastly higher. Card draw is delayed a turn, but on a different character and with a minor heal attached. Has the potential to be used for more than one turn, but also to be removed/used by the enemy. Anyone notice that Bless is gold as well? Too bad it's only on one item.

Special Movement:
Acrobatic Flip - Why would I run this when I could have parry at bronze? Yes the movement can be nice, but usually I would say a draw would be better, plus it's more reliable.
Violent Spin - Another card I'm uncertain about. I've had pretty good luck using it, and if nimble strike was nerfed it might be better, but currently I would say overvalued.
Reflexive Teleport - While powerful, far too unreliable to see regular play, especially as a gold card.
Surging Shield Block - Everybody knows Hard To Pin Down is strictly better in every way, plus easier to get. One of them needs to change.
Barge - Yeah, everybody knows this one too. Wish I'd seen whatever it was in beta that caused them to nerf it down.

Human Racials:
Lateral Thinking - Terrible Card, cycles one at the cost of card advantage, but still silver for some reason. I would argue no human racial with this on it is worth running.
Forward Thinking - Same issues as above, but not as bad. Yes, it's valued higher, but at least you're not losing a card on the deal. I'd rate as playable but overvalued.

I suspect there are more I have forgotten at the moment, I'll come back and add any more I come up with.

 

Both Acrobatic flip and Violent spin are very nice, acrobatic flip makes the first attack you pull on the opponent who just got blocked free since you can turn him around, also useful for victory point manipulation but I agree completely that parry which cycles and is more reliable shouldn't be that far apart in quality and arguably better.
The sad thing is the amount of weapons that are not getting played because of these discrepancies, so many beautiful epics and legendaries just sitting there because these overvalued cards make those weapons less effective than their less rare counterparts.
I know, the entire itemization issue is complex according to BM but the diversity potential (in items and eventually in builds) if these cards get reevaluated is so great it's worth it.
Btw I agree about the other cards as well it's just that these ones hit closer to home.

 

Those are excellent points. I'd love to see some more build diversity. I know its hard for the Devs in a game this complex to make changes. I get that. There are a lot of abilities that just need a few mechanical tweaks and things would be a little better overall - improved TK, soothing darkness, acrobatic flip, surging shield block, parry (should be a 3-4 imo for its quality, or no card draw).

I would gladly submit myself to a running convo with the devs, and I am willing to test any of the changes if they would like someone who is passionate about the game who would love to offer and test proposed tweaks.

 

Maybe this is straying off-topic, but if parry gets nerfed, it will be impossible to use melee elves even in casual play. They're just too squishy unless you load them up with blocks or use a nimbus-vampire combo. (Of course, that could be fixed if elves were to get useful racial traits that offered damage mitigation...)