[Suggestion]range on whirlwinds, immobile on armor

As in the title.

I propose adding a a range of 3 (or LoS or something similar) to Whirlwinds and Whirlwind Enemies to promote tactical (in a board-game sense) use of WWs and WWEs (while still leaving it as a no brainer defence option). Also, addition of new armors with 'immovable' status on it, which might promote armor use as well which is undervalued in current meta.

A single dwarf wizard with WWs and WWEs is a much easier way to win the movement/disruption game compared to other options but there's a lot of very good discussion on the topic all over the forum so there's not point in duplicating that here.

I believe that there's no real counter to WWs/WWEs (weather or not we want CH to turn into cookie-cutter deck vs specific-anti deck a'la rock, paper, scissors is a completely other thing) and yes, I play a lot of team runs, movement, magic blocks and 3 copies of immobile trait on each of my characters, I'm still being thrown all over the place as if it made no difference whatsoever.

 

I don't even play MP and I still wouldn't mind some sort of nerf for those two cards, LoS and/or range requirements being easiest way to do it. If you move all your characters once and then your opponent casts one Whirlwind of either type, he has just used one card to negate three and that sort of card advantage shouldn't be so easy and so common.

 

leave WW the same, its random and same for both players, maybe adjust bit WWE, make it cause 5dmg if a enemy ends up near you or something

 

I agree with the armor suggestion, they can use some more features to promote usage although I was a bit confused at first until I understood you mean immovable like the trait because being immobile is the opposite of what you meant and would really suck on any armor

 

good point Bearson! Will try to edit that

 

When you say range of 3, do you mean minimum or maximum? I kind of think it wold be just as interesting either way, since in the case of a minimum range you couldn't use it to get rid of a warrior that's all up in your face if the spell creates a safe zone in the middle centered around the caster that's the eye of the storm, for example.

 

I'd actually like to see Immovable on more class skills and racial skills; I know Dwarves already get it, but it's also very fitting for Elves too. And IMO fits with them better; Their specialty is mobility, that should include being resistant to having their positioning disrupted. I feel Dwarves only get Immovable because of lore flavor, and not because of any consistant gameplay mechanics.

Honestly, people would use Immovable over any other warrior trait because of the near-complete lack of high level Chops and Bashes. (The few that exist are very uncommon, and only appear as one or two cards on a 6 card weapon). However, it seems pretty unfair to shut down an entire build of wizard just because of one problem card. (Yes, you defend against Whirlwind; but you're also killing Force Bolt, Force Blast, Force Cone, Winds Of War, Maze, Telekinesis, Improved Telekinesis, Bash, Barge, etc)

Perhaps a compromise would be to change Immovable to "This character cannot move further than 2 squares from the effect of an enemy card", in exchange for making it a lot more common. Or perhaps introduce that as a lower level and more common variant while keeping the true Immovable where it is.

 

Personally I don't mind it being used as a no-brainer defence mechanism, it's the offensive use of whirlwinds which could require a bit more skill / planning to pull off.

I would also like to see more chops and bashes in game and their corresponding traits, but them being completely inferior to step and pure damage attacks is a different problem.
I think it's fair to be able to defend against being moved around, if someone tailored their build to do just that and sacrificed other functionality to achieve it. Without specialising heavily in immovable you wouldn't really see no cards being 'killed'. Right now there are not enough tools to consistently defend against wws even if you try, which incentivises use of your own wws and try to mess up your opponents formation equally bad rather than try to defend against it.

 

Whirlwind is fine. It's completely random. Sometimes it works in the opponent's favor.

 

The main reason Whirlwinds and Whirlwind Enemies exist in the game is to make sure that the mages have a way to keep their distance from melee. It is primarily a defensive ability.

I totally support changing its range to maybe 3-5 spaces from the caster's space. The current effect stays and still requires no line of sight. This maintains its main purpose. You can still use it offensively, but your mage is going to have to take a risk and get closer to use it.

I think this is the safest route for tweaking the card since it only affects itself. Makes it easier to implement, test and undo in necessary.

 

That's a horrible idea. You are making it even more random.

 

If we wanted such a change to take place, primarily for the benefit of MP, then what sort of range do you think would be appropriate such that it wouldn't end up altering it's utility in SP? I'm thinking specifically of the Astral Shrine adventures as my example, and my recollection of those maps is that WW spells were game changers, but that the maps were also quite large with VPs very distant from one another. Reducing the range of the spell that feels specifically tailored to mess up these chess piece enemies sounds like it could make these maps a lot more hellish to beat. Considering that a lot of those enemies use shuffle, I'd have thought a mass-maze effect might be a better solution, since everyone would still be moved, and NPC enemies with shuffle will take ages to get back to their VPs, but MP players won't feel like their positioning was completely destroyed because they were only forced to move a few paces in a random direction, rather than getting sprinkled all over the map. To effectively use a reduced range WWE in one of these astral maps, I suspect you'd still need it to have a pretty long range for the trick to work, like 8 or more. This feels like another case of SP and MP needs being at odds with one another. :/

 

Barkam the 5 dmg is dealt to the caster if any char ends up near it (or maybe a 2 title range)? would be still the same wwe but with a small drawback

Or simple: make the caster discard a random card when casting WWE,a small nerf that keeps also the card the same

 

The problem with that is that while it would nerf the card, it doesn't really make sense. Why would the caster take damage and not others? I don't think we should abandon all logic just to balance a card.

The other suggestion is not a small nerf, it's a huge nerf. Having to discard one card is no joke. I'm not sure WWE even needs a nerf, let alone a big nerf like that.

 

as a user of ww and wwe i think they are good cards, ppl just keep complaining about wwe, so was thinking a way to nerf bit wwe.

 

The caster remains on his position, move all other characters (WW) or all enemies (WWE) randomly so they still keep the same distant to the caster. That way those cards can still disrupt the formation of the opponent but don't cause total chaos across the field.

 

I think the best solution would be to change WWE and WW so that instead of putting characters into totally random squares, it moves them for example 3 steps into random direction. So it would be like a Mass Maze. This has of course been suggested earlier by others as well. It makes sense to me because you avoid dumb things like dwarf using multiple rounds to walk to the other side of the map, only to be thrown back in the starting position. It would also be less random because you would still be somewhere around the same area. And less random is always good.

 

Scared its a good idea but with so many spets atks, ww and wwe would be almost useless then, they are a great defense card (even if bit random). maybe increase the number of steps to 4? maybe even 5?

 

Works for me. They could also differentiate it from Maze so that WWE picks one direction and moves a character 4-5 steps in that direction. Kind of like Mass Charge. This way it would always move you somewhere, unless there is blocking terrain of course.

 

WW nerf..../lol then also remove most icecards. When people (with there icebuild) see me WW them most just give you the win......its the best contradeck against those (80% here) icebuilds.

Leave it as it is.