Vibrant Pain.. and how to fix it

The issue is complicated. Nimble Strike can't be tweaked until Winds of War and encumber with range 8 is tweaked. They all need to be adjusted at the same time or we are back to having dominant cards. Please heed my warning.

I am going to call out Scared Little Girl here and say that he is focusing on Nimble Strike is because that is the only card that can have a chance against his build of 3 control encumber dwarf wizards (which is very strong).

 

Counters to encumber already lie in other places; If Nimble Strike was the only way to fight against encumber, warriors would be laughable at high ranking play.

I'd honestly say the opposite; Wizards are useless at high ranking unless they're encumber/control wizards, because otherwise they get shredded in the first couple turns. There are very few, if any, wizards built for damage. The only ones that seem to come close to doing well are Firestorm builds that are also supported by a pair of clerics, but I always see Nimble Strike Warrior builds above them in rating regardless.

 

If the Nimble Strikes on Nifty Halberd show up, it's great, but I usually run Blazing Shortswords because the damage is better, more consistent, and Combustible cycles.

4 steps on an attack is not OP. 6 Nimble Strikes on a weapon may be. I voted for a slight nerf, but only in regard to Vibrant Pain, not to Nimble Strike.

Ranting is ranting, and can be fun, but until the draw deck nerfs are in place and played a while I'd hate to see any changes to this.

 

The card requires two gold stars. I don't see it as any better than, let say, Bejewel Shortsword.

 

I've said it in a number of threads now and I'll say it again: Nimble Strike could afford to deal 1 or even 0 damage and it would still be a competitive card. As-is it's ludicrous. It's two cards in one, and because cards are action economy within a turn in this game, it's two actions in one. The ways of getting card advantage in CH are limited. In terms of cards that give strict card advantage—as in, +cards in your hand or -cards in your opponents'—there's parry, counterspell, short perplexing ray, a lucky boiling armor, elvish insight hitting blocks, (now) demonic power, the super slow accelerated thoughts, blessing tiles... and maybe a couple more, but it adds up to a tiny fraction of the card pool. Of course, getting card advantage is the name of the game. And there're a lot of effects that give marginal advantage. Winds of War negates three squares of movement on two characters, and thus often negates two move cards: advantage. Team moves like scuttle, team! are similar.

And so is nimble strike.

One card. One action.

But it's actually two cards, and it's actually two actions. It's ludicrously powerful. No self-damage, no waiting a turn to use your cards, no range limit on being able to give those cards to another character—just straight up, you have two cards, and one cantrips into the other. You dash, and then you attack for 6 (or, often, more). There are few other cards in the game that give you two cards in your hand for the price of one draw (or one slot in your deck). In fact, step attacks and team moves are the only cards I can think of that both grant AND leverage live card advantage with a single click, basically unconditionally.

I think basically anyone who says there's no problem with nimble strike doesn't understand the fundamental strength of step attacks.

Nimble strike as currently printed is clearly an emerald card.

Vibrant pain, as a legendary with 2 gold tokens, could have two copies of emerald nimble strike, and then an assortment of silver and bronze step attacks. It would still be strong

 

You got to remember that Vibrant Pain is far from being the only weapon featuring Nimble Strike - some of them even tokenless.

 

I think the point he is trying to make is that there are no divine rules or formulas that you have to follow when making cards or tweaking them. You said earlier, and again here, that adding one Trip to Vibrant Pain would somehow require tons of other changes as well, like changing the rarity from legendary to something else. My question is why? Who cares about some unknown formula? All that should matter is how powerful the item is. Even with one drawback card, Vibrant Pain still easily be power-wise at the top of lvl 18 (2 yellow token) items.

I think you are wrong about that. Being balanced does not equal being the same or being boring. Being balanced simply means that same power level cards are different yet equally powerful. When all same power level cards are equally powerful, it gives you much more options in deckbuilding, making the game more diverse and interesting because you do not have to use that same couple of op cards like everyone else to be able to compete.

I'm guessing you haven't used Nimble Strike much in mp. I don't have Vibrant Pain but I do have a bunch of other items that have Nimble Strike, and I often use warrior builds that combine Nimble Strike and Vicious Thrust. The fact is that Nimble Strike is much better in reality than you might imagine just by reading the card. I'm pretty sure that if you tried Vibrant Pain you would change your opinion pretty quick.

I agree. Step 4 is way too much. And to call it a "step" is a joke. It's not a "step", it's a freaking elven Dash. Theme-wise it makes very little sense to have dwarven warriors suddenly double their regular movement, followed by an attack. But the problem is of course that removing step 4 is very unlikely to happen since it would require some huge changes. And developers usually try not to change anything unless absolutely necessary because there is this certain group of games who always make drama about every single change whether or not it is good for the game.

Winds of War is #2 on my list of cards that should be nerfed. I think it's overpowered because it targets two people and slides them as much as 3. It should either target only one person or slide less. But that is off-topic.

As for you calling me out.. someone already suggested this earlier in this topic. You can read my response if you like. But I will say that Nimble Strike is not best the counter for my current control build. Sure it's powerful like it's powerful against every single build out there but the real counters for my build are cards like Firestorm, WWE and WoW. Card draw warrior with Vibrant Pain is usually pretty easy because I have tons of ways to shut him down or escape.

Also, aren't you one of the few players who has Vibrant Pain? Instead of trying to suggest that I have some kind of personal agenda here, maybe you should think about your own objectivity in this matter? Or alternatively look at the poll results which suggest that I'm not the only one who feels the item and the card is overpowered.

I agree. I've been messing around with a team of full-damage wizards and they get destroyed by step-warriors. Unless you have a way to push, slide or encumber that warrior, you will die pretty fast. And the worst part is that even if you manage to push, slide or encumber him, he just keeps coming forward with that step 4.

Are you serious? Have you actually tried or seen Nimble Strike in action?

A very good post.I agree 100%. I haven't really thought about Nimble Strike as two cards where one cantrips into the other, but now that I do, that's exactly how it is. Like you said, it's being able to play two cards (Dash + 6 damage piercing attack) when your opponent plays only one.

Only one is tokenless, Nifty Halberd and that one has 3 weak strikes and 1 Able Bludgeon which could really mess up your draw. I speak from experience. My warrior usually has Nifty Halberd and he tends to draw those crappy weak strikes way too often. Lochaber Axe is a bit better but it also has 2 poor cards and it costs 2 blue tokens. Vibrant Pain has no drawbacks, only 6 copies of a card that should probably be gold or emerald.

 

I don't. Perhaps not boring, which I never claimed the game would become boring, but certainly bland and rigid.

I called the weapon boring because it has 6 of the exact same card on it. That's what's really wrong with the item. If Nimble Strike were truly Rare it wouldn't be on the same item 6 times. If the weapon had 2x Nimble Strike, 2x Fiery Stab, and 2x Shredding Strike the item would remain at it's level and token cost, would still be powerful, and wouldn't over-saturate a deck with Nimble Strike. I feel like a player should have to work more for that many of a Rare card.

If people think Nimble Strike is more along the lines of a Rare/Gold card I'm fine with that. I'd end up getting what I think is the proper change by removing some Nimble Strikes for it to keep it's level and token cost.

I'm curious as to why there's very little talk about encumber effects on a warrior in this discussion. I don't know the situation in MP so I'm curious if there's an accepted meta that I just don't know about.

 

Encumber effects all have more range then can be covered in single Nimble Strike. It's fairly rare to see situation where encumber is irrelevant due to Nimble Strike, and when that happens it's usually result of misjudgement on encumbering wizard side.

In most cases you get hit with encumber, you hold that Nimble Strike until target comes in range, encumber falls off, or you get team push - maybe use it to move out of LoS if situation looks dangerous or jump to VP at most.

 

One thing that illustrates just how ridiculous Nimble Strike is is the fact Quick Run is gold and only allows you to move 3. Sure you can deliver a bigger attack after it if you have one in hand, but that's two cards with one of them being more expensive and not allowing you to move as far. Quick Step is silver, same as Nimble Strike.

 

I think you've missed the point entirely. There is nothing to gain from treating these numbers and formulas like a bible, because at the end of the day the numbers were assigned by humans and the formulas were created by humans, and humans can be prone to error. The value of cards can be overestimated and underestimated, and a strict formula will pay no heed to context, and context can turn any card into a dead draw or a powerhouse. Have you ever heard the phrase "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"? I can assure you a mechanical formula isn't built to consider it.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't get to tell me what my point is.

 

No, it's not called a difference of opinion. It's called a Strawman argument. And I have to find it ironic that a post intended to call out a rude gesture is now being called rude. I'll agree to just leave it, though, we're far from being constructive at this point.

 

I guess what it comes down to is this: are the formulae outside the game, determining item stats that are then entered into the game? Or are the formulae coded into the game?

I'm starting to suspect it is the latter, and that unless they redo all the formulae, or code in special items that defy the formulae, the devs can't edit items freely. In this scenario, there is no strawman argument on Pengw1n's part. There is only Unlucky Scarecrow misunderstanding the integral nature of these formulae. To be fair, the discussion has been far from crystal clear.

But, as I understand it based on comments in this thread, if the devs, say, edit nimble strike to be a gold card, vibrant pain would no longer be able to house 6 of them at its current combination of token cost, item level, and item rarity. Or if they edit vibrant pain to have 3 nimble strikes and 3 dancing cuts, vibrant pain would become automatically lower-level/lower-rarity/lower-token-cost. My comprehension is that their hands are, in this way, not tied exactly but constrained. I feel like there would be room for a lot more granular balance changes if their options weren't so limited. And like, sure, whatever system is in place may have its flaws, but it makes sense for the devs to work within the confines of their system. Unless it's fatally flawed and needs to be completely rebuilt. But we don't know that

 

Hey hey everyone, when you post on-line rather than chat about things face-to-face, it's pretty easy to misconstrue intentions. From my perspective, nobody looked like they were trying to be rude so let's all just remember that we're all here for the same reason: Card Hunter is awesome and we all want it to be the best game we can.

 

I'm under the impression that the level of items is automatically determined by the power rating of the cards on the item; and that the power requirements of items are automatically determined by their level. So although the rules and formulas may not be 'divine', they still play an important role in the way cards and items are balanced. Swapping one Nimble Strike for Trip would likely result in the item being automatically downgraded such that it only requires+. 'automatic' is the key word here. Obviously the rules of the game could be rewritten in a way that didn't cause this to happen, but that would probably be a lot more work.

 

Card hunter is awesome... but... imo, it has deep seeded problems in regards to balance and what is considered to be fun at the high end of MP.

I have read the arguments for and against and quite frankly I think a lot of people are overthinking the solution to obvious problems. I don't want to sound disrespectful. Please believe that I say the following with constructiveness in mind. I don't play the game anymore but I still believe it has massive potential.

The automatic assignment of power tokens to items doesn't make any sense and simply needs to go. It might have saved some time in the beginning but the longer they continue to dance around it - the harder it is to make needed changes and the longer players have to wait for balance. Its a no win situation, just bite the bullet and change it.

Similarly, when balancing an item for MP, SP should be left out of the equation completely. Adjustments will have to be made, there is no way around it. Not balancing 'X' because people are worried it will negatively affect SP is not a long-term solution and only adds to the problem (in the sense that it delays needed changes).

Instead of worrying about the wind in Spain, just tweak the numbers and be reactive to feedback. Either remove the item entirely (until you balance it) OR reduce the step by 1 OR the damage by 1. Wait for player feedback and make additional adjustments if necessary. I see no reason to make this such a long and drawn out process. Even if the result is that it has to go back to the way it was originally at least it shakes things up. As it is now you run the risk of things getting stale before you have the chance to make a quality of life change.

The only boundary in which balance needs to be constrained is simple: What is fun and what isn't. What limits effective strategies and what broadens it. I don't believe CH is at the stage it needs to be yet to justify the slowness that balance is currently approached. I don't know about everyone else but I would much rather see Blue Manchu be more reactive and make a series of quick minor changes and test the water instead of not wanting to change something without first considering ALL of the implications said changes will have. Balance does not have to be this complicated.