[Feedback] Demon charm of the second circle needs a nerf

As the title says, the item is just gamebreakingly good and a major reason why you see all those dwarf draw teams at the top of the ladder.
It draws 2 extra cards for at the cost of ~8-10 preventable damage.

This does not sound like much, but consider this:
2 extra cards is effectively a "Take another turn" effect.
You do not spend power tokens, so you draw more of your powertoken cards. Effectively increasing the amount of powertokens the cleric can use.
The damage is spread across multiple cards and (mostly) under your control, so it is easy to mitigate.
You can focus the card draw on the character that benefits it the most. (Whether that's your altruism cleric, your warrior in melee with the enemies, or a wizard when the opponent is still far away)

I would even be tempted to use the charm if it would cost a gold token, so third and 5th circle probably need some adjustment too.

Here is the deck I am running at the moment for reference:

Dying acolyte
Level 20 Dwarf Priest

Whiteglow Flail
Glinting Eye Hammer
Dark Chain Shirt
Dueler's Buckler
Rhood's Boots
Jygpin's Healing Ring
Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle
Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle
Advanced Ferocity
Focused Piety
​

1 x Team Run
1 x Impenetrable Nimbus
1 x Sapping Touch
1 x War Cry
1 x Healing Rays
1 x Blind Rage
2 x Mighty Bludgeon
1 x Barge
1 x Dwarven Battle Cry
1 x Boosted Heal
2 x Nimble Strike
1 x Light Heal
1 x Powerful Bash
1 x Martyr Blessing
1 x Unreliable Block
1 x Reliable Mail
2 x Unholy Power
1 x Team Heal
1 x Rushing Aura
1 x Purge
1 x Inspiring Presence
3 x Altruism
1 x Block
1 x Raging Strike
1 x Wild Run
2 x Demonic Feedback
2 x Demonic Revenge
1 x Parry
1 x Hardy Mail
​

Frenzied Acolyte
Level 1 Dwarf Priest

Glinting Eye Hammer
St. Olf's Fiery Pike
St. Borgun's Plate
Slippery Shield
Wlakwa's Boots
Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle
Shuddering Relic
Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle
Advanced Ferocity
Novice Piety
​

2 x Fiery Stab
2 x Demonic Revenge
1 x Dwarven Battle Cry
1 x Shuffle
1 x Inspiration
2 x Stab
1 x Healing Rays
1 x Blind Rage
2 x Altruism
1 x War Cry
2 x Mighty Bludgeon
1 x Purge
1 x Vulnerable
1 x Enervating Touch
2 x Minor Heal
1 x Raging Strike
1 x Powerful Bash
1 x Team Run
2 x Demonic Feedback
3 x Mass Frenzy
3 x Hard To Pin Down
1 x Reliable Mail
1 x Violent Spin
2 x Unholy Power
​

The Master
Level 19 Dwarf Priest

Inkdark Halberd
Glinting Eye Hammer
Glowing Hide Armor
Slippery Shield
Salazar's Sandals
Shielding Token
Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle
Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle
Perfect Ferocity
Novice Piety
​

1 x Blind Rage
2 x Impenetrable Nimbus
1 x Consuming Touch
1 x Dwarven Battle Cry
1 x Energizing Move
1 x Reliable Hide Armor
2 x Mighty Bludgeon
1 x Healing Rays
1 x Thick Hide Armor
1 x Frenzy Aura
3 x Hard To Pin Down
1 x Powerful Bash
2 x Unholy Power
1 x Rusty Armor
2 x Altruism
1 x Purge
2 x Bludgeon
1 x Invigorating Touch
1 x Raging Strike
1 x Inspiring Presence
2 x Spear Of Darkness
1 x Minor Heal
1 x Polearm Slash
1 x Team Run
2 x Demonic Feedback
2 x Demonic Revenge
​

 

I agree that this item is too powerful, and also – dare I say – unfun. (I don't think I've said that about any other aspect of the game.)

I really dislike playing against draw-decks.

In 'normal' battles (without draw decks), there is a sense that each characters starts the round with some resources that they must use to the best of their ability. Every time I use my card, I hope to get some good value out of it - and every time the enemy plays a card, I hope to be able to stymie them somehow to minimise their benefits. It's important to choose carefully which cards I can use effectively in this round, and which cards are better saved for the next round. And it's imported to remember that the enemy is doing the same thing - and so I should think about what cards they might be saving, and I should consider trying to lure them into a situation where they will waste their best cards...

Whereas when playing against a draw-deck, where every round is a long chain of Inspiration, and Demonic Feedback etc., there is no longer any sense of how large the enemy's resource pool might be. They might play 2 cards, or they might play 20 cards; and there's just no way of knowing. And whatever cards they choose to save aren't really significant because they'll probably cycle through a stack of other cards in the next round anyway. In some sense that's an interesting twist to the game — a different style of play with different things to consider — but I feel like considering those different things doesn't really get me anywhere anyway. It makes the game feel a bit empty to me.

Then my opponent is using a draw deck, they get to take more turns and make more decisions than I do, and it's much harder for me to work out what they might have in their hand because they're constantly cycling through their cards. What can I do other than hope that their chain of drawing cards ends before they get something useful? It's difficult to bait them to use their important cards because most of the time their important cards haven't been drawn yet - and so they just keep playing Unholy Power while I'm conspicuously pressing end turn immediately after moving my baiting character into their line of sight, or whatever. Making them 'waste' cards isn't as significant anyway, because they've got heaps of cards. (The card they have probably aren't very good - but they have a lot of them...)

Anyway, I could rant about it some more, but the crux is that I don't like playing against draw-decks, even if they aren't an 'infinite' draw deck. And I think Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle is a driving force behind draw-decks being popular and powerful.

For some time now, I've been avoiding having Unholy Power and Demonic Feedback in any of my decks as a matter of principle. I don't like the effect those cards have on gameplay. I happy with cards like Accelerated Thought, Consecrated Ground, Unholy Energy and even Inspiration - because those cards don't amplified when they are chained together; but reusable cards which increase the size of ones hand bother me. (Demonic Feedback and Unholy Energy are the obvious examples, but Inspiring Presence and Dwarven Battlecry also fall under this category.)

... I guess I've started to rant again. Maybe I should have just pressed 'like' on the original post and left it at that!

 

If it's any indication to how just a cause is - blue manchu needs to deal with this situation on the sheer amount of different threads regarding this subject.
Despite still having a major blast with the game - drawing, draw decks, firestorm builds based on draws, charms, unfun, etc. are words that are all too common on multiple threads around the same issue.
maximum hand limit is a nice start in my personal opinion, just to see how it affects everything. that to me is better then any item nerf, and I believe may solve the problem alltogether. interested in you guys' opinions...

 

Maximum hand limit would not solve anything. It would just be an inconvenience to draw decks. You would just play a couple moves/buffs/attacks until you are below the limit again and keep drawing cards.
I do not feel that drawing cards is inherently broken. It's just that card draw (most notably demonic feedback) is highly undervalued by the item system.

 

Thank you for posting this. Its an inevitability at this point that anyone who wants to be competitive above a certain level run a draw-deck or have some kind of tactic that can deal with it in turn 1-2 (team sprint plus aoa/obli or WWE/WW spam come to mind), and even then the wins are purely luck based as a 'counter'.

Its by far the strongest strategy that exists in the game at the moment.

The item you reference is the biggest part of the equation, but even if it were modified there would still be problems with the strength of the entire build. A change to the cards themselves seem necessary. Priest items appear to confer better value in what they translate to than the cards of other classes.

Turin, another thing I've noticed, and its a small issue compared to the draw-deck nonsense, but everyone that can is using Slippery Shield right now. Its clear and away in my mind the best shield in the game. Do you agree or disagree with this and see it as a problem?

 

I disagree, friend.

Having a limit means that characters would have to expand their cards first which causes a shift in positioning before the priests use all the card drawing they have meaning you can close in on said priests or single out that firestorm mage who had to come closer to get rid of his spark or glob of flame first.
I'm not completely against nerfing 2nd circle charm, I'm just saying having a limitless hand seems ridiculous. I don't think that just nerfing the items that cause card draw will prevent a 12 card dwarven warrior behemoth from frantically running around, demolishing one or two characters on the first turn.
having so many cards means not only does that warrior have plenty of attacks but also probably some blocks and armor, while putting a limit on his hand means that the first obstacle he meets actually still has a chance of fighting back.

The big question is this - is a limitless hand ok? and if not do we wanna solve it by nerfing items or simply putting a cap on hand size?

Obviously every solution will need testing time and additional feedback, as a matter of principle though, if you look at any card game (not just fantasy based) having a limitless hand is rarely allowed.

 

It is the best shield in the game. I could see myself using parrying buckler or the shield with 3 icy blocks though. Move 3 after the block is again card advantage, your draw is just a guaranteed Quick Run. However I do not see it as a (big) problem. For one it is appropriately priced at a gold token, secondly it is only rare quality and thirdly I would rather see the other shields/blocks not suck so much. Basically any block that does not have a positive effect on triggering is at best card neutral, so most of the blocks in the game are bad. Exceptions are Lifesaving Block, Icy Block, Parry and Hard To Pin Down.
@bearson onyx

I guess we will just have to disagree. Unless you make the handlimit really small (5 or so) it just won't have a big effect and will make the game more annoying to play. At best you can hope to remove those uberwarriors and replace them with wizards, who don't need to move far from the carddrawers.

 

Thanks for weighing in on this for me, its something I've been thinking of (not actually having the card myself). I think in any optimal deck right now people are running the items we talked about above with slippery shield and team run boots.

As to draw deck with triple priest over any other comp, you get mass mobility, heals, damage, utility. Triple Priest is amazing. I personally have been experimenting with each and I think that if I had the right deck I'd run triple priest right now over 2 priest 1 war, and the reason is that adding another priest (assuming you have the amazing gear to do so) just exponentially makes your party better.

Every round can be a nova round. All you basically need to do is proc an inspiring presence or dwarf cry and then the chains just go on and on and on. It doesn't end up infinite usually (at least not for me because I don't have a perfect deck for this comp), but 15-20 cards later for each person its game over. This is how I farm in campaign also.

So with all of that said, can anyone here design an effective RELIABLE counter? I personally cannot. Its my opinion that no one else will be able to either because this comp is gamebreaking.

 

I built a whirlwind wizard to counter this, but when she is in the team, I don't play against any draw decks. :/

 

Kogi, respectfully, I don't believe WW/WWE counters that deck (at least not reliably). Let's say you are lucky enough to get an optimal WW. You still have to get lucky and kill someone almost immediately (and this means they don't just kill you, or run back to each other, or have a nimbus, or aren't able to outheal), and then HOPE that the other 2 still don't just 2v3 you (which is extremely easy with a draw deck anyway).

WW/WWE sounds good in theory, but it really just doesn't work practically (and gimps you vs other comps usually as you WW/WWE a warrior who murders you into your group).

 

Just increase the damage on unholy power, and make the damage dealt from the draw cards unpreventable (so no nimbus abuse), but still blockable. Problem solved.

The cards are still useful in a pinch, but can no longer be abused for ridiculous draws without putting your team at risk. On the flipside, they are now more useful as offensive cards.

 

Nimbus needs to only prevent damage done by opponents and that alone will help this issue a lot as without this preventing damage you cause yourself people cannot draw 10+ cards a turn and expect to survive and this will apply to the firestorm draws running around also.

Otherwise short of making this item have something along the line of discard randomly the same amount of cards drawn with this item but before you draw the new cards not much will work unless they place a small limit of how many extra cards you can draw per turn of say 2-3 extra as beyond that it just gets unbalanced again.

 

I like nimbus only preventing damage from cards controlled by your opponents, sort of like how martyr's blessing only triggers on damage from cards controlled by your opponents.

 

I agree limiting the player's hand, while an inconvenience, would not solve the issue completely. I still think you shouldn't be allowed to just draw an arbitrary amount of cards, as you can draw a huge amount of cards (though not infinite) by using builds/strats other than draw engine.

As with the build itself, I think the true problem lies with how many cards of a certain kind you can stuff in a deck. You don't necessarily need to nerf the cards themselves nor the mechanic (drawing still is a fun to use mechanic and a perfectly legit one, if it's not abusable, that is).

And yes, Demonic Charm Of The 2nd Circle coming with no token cost is just ludicrous.

 

This pretty much nails it. All (or close to all) cards that draw other cards (traits too) are undervalued by the item system. A revaluation of a lot of cards is needed for the game to become balanced. Unfortunately it would require the changing of a lot of items too in regards of levels and power tokens, but the sooner the better, so that the game can come closer to it's true potential (and earn more money).

 

Demon charm of the 2nd circle needs to, at a minimum, cost a token.

Impenetrable nimbus should not prevent self-inflicted damage. This would weaken warrior deck engines as well as firestorm decks. Presumably, it would hurt triple priest decks as well, though I haven't fought enough of them to have a well though out opinion on the build.

Hands should be capped at 7 cards. This should have a minimal effect, but is still a reasonable restriction.

Lesser issue but relevant: Time needs to start ticking for a player when they are actually able to play. Your enemy casting demonic feedback should not instantly swap to your turn, when the spell is still casting, then dealing damage, which is then subject to armor rolls. You can sit there for 10+ seconds during the enemy's turn while your own clock ticks down.

 

I'd say only some draw card are undervalued (namely unholy power/demonic feedback). Inspiration is certainly at the right place. There is absolutely no item few item with inspiration that does not cost token.

Piggyback on karadoc's argument that cards on hand is a limited resources and players need to access to maximize their card advantage in a game by minimizing their opponenet's effect and maximize theirs. In that same vein, cards that draw 2 such as unholy power and demonic feedback is totally fine in this as it is a type of card that give you card advantage. You have to account for a card (resources) in the enemy that may do nothing but generate more resources. It is still accountable for. The problems only arise when that resources get you more of the same card that generate resources.

Let's look an another similar card that give you card advantage: Short Perplexing Ray This is a very powerful card when used correctly but is in no way overpowered simply because it does not draw any card. The range is also small and requires putting your wizard toward your enemy. Demonic Feedback/ Unholy Power give you the same +1 card advantage but does not require you to get close to opponent and has much superior range. What makes it different is the fact that card advantage is gained by drawing more card, which compound the problem when the rest of the card you are going to draw may be Demonic Feedback/Unholy Power itself.

Let's try another card: Parry. Parry works by trading one of your card for theirs, and draw you a card, netting a +1 card advantage. This card has a very high chance to trigger (5/6) but the condition in which it can trigger is passive and rely on the enemy to attack. A better version can be considered is Toughness (unless you plan to self-harm). Again, trading one for one, and draw a replacement, netting you +1. (Small note: There are conditions in which they might not trade one for one, but that is exactly the way your opponents will deal with to minimize the effect of your card advantage cards)

And finally, let's look at Inspiration + Altruism combo, a card designed to gain card advantage. They will net you +1 card advantage, they gain the advantage by drawing instead of discarding. They are active instead of passive. And has a fairly low range. They also had an 50% chance to trigger and a built in fail-safe.

To sum it up Demonic Feedback / Unholy Power is very undervalued for their power compared to similar card advantage cards in the game because:

• They are active instead of passive (vs Parry/Toughness)
• They have much better range (vs Short Perplexing Ray, Parry, Altruism)
• They do not requires an enemy to be close/within line of sight or getting close to the enemy (vs Short Perplexing Ray, Parry, Toughness)
• They gain advantage by drawing more cards (= Inspiration/Altruism)
• Their only disadvantage (taking dmg) is minimal when matches are fast and usually decided within 3-4 turns.
• Edit: One more: Guaranteed success (vs Altruism)

TL,DR: Demonic Feedback / Unholy Power is better than any other card advantage cards and somehow is way cheaper (undervalued).
(I was only about to post the first sentence then I started to ramble again... )

 

7 is bit on the low side. You get up to 5 with normal draw. It's bit heavyhanded to add 2nd card limit. Much better just nerf cards/items, especially the charm.

 

Rambling is good as far as it's good rambling. High quality post, 100% agree.

Analysis like these are extra valuable, so keep 'hem coming and don't worry about the rambling action.

 

There are 4, out of the 21 items with Inspiration on them. But, of the four, only smoky talisman is particularly good.

You have up to 5 with normal draws, on turn 1, or if you've held 2 from the prior round. But even with 5 cards at the start of a turn, you'd be able to draw 2 more before having to cast a single one or move into position. It's not a restriction for only allowing you to draw 2-4 cards per round, but rather that you can't stock up more than 7 cards total before having to use any.

Instead of getting 10++ cards before charging in, with an armada of movement, armor, blocks, and damage, you'd have fewer opportunities to get the cards you want before initiating combat, and would have to get into combat (or at least nearer) before continuing to draw more cards. It would make it impossible to chase blindly after someone, completely out of line of sight of your team, with enough cards to win in any situation. You'd have to stay in line of sight of your priests, or else cut off your supply line.

Setting a 7-card cutoff would never stop you from playing at least 1 draw card. Either a self-draw 3, or a teammate draw 2, would both be possible, even if you held 2 from the prior round.

Perhaps 8 would be a better number. It's too hard to pick a number without it seeming somewhat arbitrary. But some restriction should be set. Even with increased damage costs for demonic feedback & friends, it has the potential for some insane hands.