I mentioned in my other thread that draw decks are broken, in part due to their ability to exponentially become more powerful. To add to the point about exponential draw: With good cards - say after a couple months of 4x per week winning 20 games with a membership - this will become *easily* possible. Say you have a 2 healer team each with this load out: 2x demonic charms of the second circle = 8 cards drawn and -2 card in the deck (due to the "negative") 4x inspiring presence from weapons/divine item = 8 cards drawn on healers 3 altruism, from the rare one = 2 cards drawn (round down a lot for overlap and wasted charges) and 3 cards removed 1x Dwarven Battle Cry = 2 cards drawn 1x Armor with inspiring armor - For simplicity's sake let's say you found 2 even though its not that likely. This card draws 2 cards. [Note: Having 2 of the rare items with 3 altruism is somewhat unlikey, however I did not include an armor with inspiration on it that is easily available that mostly cancels this out... plus I was pessimistic a bit in my draw estimation. I also made the assumption that you don't find the epic weapon that has 2x inspiring presence on the same item, which IMO is quite pessimistic] Each healer has 37 cards in the deck normally. However with just these "negative" and trait cards (assuming no others) that new number is effectively 32 cards. You start the game with 4 cards so that becomes 28 cards. Wait at the start one round and the new total is 25 cards left. 25 Cards left in the deck on round 2... and the above mentioned cards draw a total of 8 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 2 = your cards draw a total of 22 cards for the healers. Do a 3 healer example and it gets truly ridiculous. Now you will draw your entire deck pretty much every time on round 2 for *everyone*... and then I guess you continue cycling through it and have infinite cards? If I am missing something here I'd like to know what that is.
Ppl will always complain about something, just try counter it, theres alot of discard cards outthere that can cause havoc to enemy strategy and your forgetting they must atack with something... easier way to counter this would b a trait that does 2dmg per card draw or something like that
Some of those cards let the enemy draw too, and even the ones that don't still use up your turn. I don't think this will even become popular.
Not most of them lol. And anyway them drawing a card doesn't matter as much because it doesn't mean they just draw their whole deck.
Sorry, I misunderstood your original comment and somehow missed reading the second last line. Also kind of made an assumption based on the name of the thread that gave me tunnel vision when reading what you actually had to say. Infinite draw/cycle decks would be game breaking, I know they were an issue in the beta and a lot has been done to reduce their viability but assuming your numbers are correct, it looks like they are still potentially possible. Leadership could probably cycle better than Dwarven Battle Cry because you can have two in your deck and it is draw 4 instead of draw 3.
Just an update. I've built a deck now that sucessfully draws everyone's deck second turn. Clearly its broken.
Another update: it only infinite draws about half of games. the other you get maybe 15 cards per guy. Really things only go poorly when the opponent attacks early on.
Everyone has third circle divine items, weapons are 2 inspiration ones, i have 2 of the rare divine skill that gives 3 altruism, the other guy uses one with 2 + heal. Boots are 2 trait or 2 spin boots to cycle through deck faster. It is 3 dwarves with battle cry. I have a few inpenatrable nimbus on diving weapons, not nearly enough to be optimal. that sums up most of it.
You said 'third circle', but it would surprise me if you were using Demon Charm Of The 3rd Circle rather than Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle. A few different people have pointed the finger at Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle for being a potential problem causing item in infinite draw decks. (Including me, in this thread.) In any case, if you have got a working infinite-draw build, my suggestion is to take a screenshot or two of the board once you've drawn out all your cards, and to get a dump of all the items and cards you used to do it. Post both things things in this thread (or in a new thread if you'd prefer). To get the list of items, open the in-game console by pressing F2, and then enter the command 'partyanddecksbbcode'. That will put a copy of all your current equipment in the clipboard, and then you can paste it into a forum post.
That was second round, continued on the draw cycle from there to kill him - it might not look like enough draw cards but really once you've drawn this many cards you're set. Once your deck resets it doesn't use cards already in your hand so basically you just draw as many as you want. Only risk here with my build is that I only have 2 nimbus due to having really crappy items. Doesn't really matter though you just have to be really careful with the guy that isn't invincible (battle cry could easily kill him for example). If I had divine weapons with that area of effect inspirational presence then the build would start getting ridiculous. However I don't have a single one because I've gotten really unlucky in finding any of those.
Klinkaskree Level 18 Dwarf Priest White Halberd Duality Mace Inspirational Mail Spellthwart Shield Possessed Shoes Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Scuffed Relic Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Superb Ferocity Focused Piety 2 x Touch Of Death 1 x Cautious Sneak 2 x Polearm Slash 4 x Inspiration 1 x Draining Touch 1 x Bungled Heal 3 x Altruism 2 x Unholy Power 2 x Charge 1 x Shuffle 2 x Demonic Revenge 1 x Weak Chop 1 x Inspiring Presence 2 x Demonic Feedback 3 x Missile Block 1 x Cleansing Burst 1 x Lifesaving Block 2 x Impenetrable Nimbus 1 x Dwarven Battle Cry 1 x Chop 1 x Mail 1 x Immovable Khrumogri Level 10 Dwarf Priest White Halberd White Halberd Inspirational Mail Spellthwart Shield Spinning Top Boots Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Superb Ferocity Focused Piety 3 x Altruism 4 x Polearm Slash 6 x Inspiration 1 x Dwarven Battle Cry 2 x Spin Around 3 x Charge 3 x Demonic Revenge 2 x Weak Chop 2 x Draining Touch 3 x Demonic Feedback 3 x Missile Block 3 x Unholy Power 1 x Mail Uzkulogri Level 1 Dwarf Priest Aureate Mace White Halberd Inspirational Mail Spellthwart Shield Spinning Top Boots Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle Superb Ferocity Focused Piety 3 x Altruism 2 x Polearm Slash 6 x Inspiration 1 x Draining Touch 2 x Spin Around 3 x Charge 3 x Demonic Revenge 2 x Bash 2 x Devastating Blow 3 x Demonic Feedback 3 x Missile Block 1 x Weak Chop 1 x Dwarven Battle Cry 3 x Unholy Power 1 x Mail - I just improved the items a bit - the rarities store had another altruism charm. I also changed around who had what a bit to be more optimal. Basically you bounce the draw cards onto the character with the nimbus and have him give it to the other two guys. Then those guys just do all the drawing for you from there on out.
We played a lot of these types of decks in beta. It was much easier then as the draw cards had not yet been nerfed. There are a lot of counters for your deck now that they have weakened the cards. Just one whirlwind or winds of war and it is game over for you as the range on the spells has been shortened so much. Also now with the timer counter and the way they have things set up you will time yourself out some games just from drawing a bunch of cards and doing not much else.
I've not been timed out of one game. Indeed WWE counters this build. But then again that card "counters" every build because it is blatantly OP. Getting an early ninja warrior in also "counters" this - if they happen to draw great run cards. But again, that is extremely powerful and game breaking against just about any deck except I guess push/snare decks. Notice that I play those spell block shields BTW - that is specifically for WWE!
Whirlwind may well screw this kind of thing up - but I don't think that means infinite draw isn't a problem. If the infinite draw can reliably get rolling on just the second round, then it's unreasonable to expect that opponents will have drawn a Whirlwind or any card like that. In fact, I think it's unreasonable to expect all players to bring cards like that in their deck. Playing against infinite draw decks is as boring as hell, and although there is a lot of luck in this game I think if games start being decided by who is lucky enough to get their infinite combo rolling first, or who can draw Whirlwind Enemies first, then that will make for some pretty abysmal gameplay. As I've said at some length in the past, instant card drawing effects (such as from Unholy Power and Inspiring Presence) create unique balance problem in that they are self reinforcing. If such cards are allowed to exist in the game, then they should be carefully regulated so that infinite draw decks are not possible. In my view, it would be best if it wasn't even nearly possible to get close an infinite draw deck. Items such as Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle may not be particularly powerful in isolation, but when you get a bunch of them together they can become the by far the most powerful item in the game due to the self-synergising effect (which I tried to describe here). I haven't been giving a lot of thought to the infinite build stuff since that thread. I don't really have any interest in using such builds myself, and if no one else is doing it then it isn't really a problem. But the fact is that if it is possible to do then it will probably be an effective PvP strategy; and if it is an effective PvP strategy then it will probably eventually become a popular PvP strategy; and if it becomes a popular PvP strategy then ... it will be bad for the game. Maybe it would be best if some items or cards were changed soon rather than waiting to see if it becomes a big problem later on. I definitely think that the demon charm is a problematic item. And depending on how Blue Manchu wants to control the issue, there might be a couple of other items to be change as well.
I agree that this kind of thing is a problem. Even capping cards in your hand at one time to 8/10 would probably solve the problem without breaking normal gameplay.
Is that 8/10 per char ? Cos taken over 3 chars, its still 24-30 cards ... and you'd be willing to face someone with that sort of advantage ? No offense to the OP but Pre-talented healer change: https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/talented-healer-produces-an-avalanche-of-cards.1371/ Pre-altrusim change: https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/mp-builds.1773/ Devs Talented Healer balance response: https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/upcoming-balance-changes-21-aug-2013.3162/ Devs Altruism balance reponse: https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/upcoming-balance-changes-2-sep-2013-altruism.3286/ Playerbase feedback: https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/how-to-nerf-talented-healer.3051/ https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/analysis-of-infinite-draw-decks.3093/ https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/time-to-break-altruism-post-builds-and-discussion-here.3207/ Devs position on the issue: https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/what-i-dont-want-to-see-happen-on-the-forums.3103/#post-31879
No, I'd rather not, but I mean, you start with 5 on your first turn. Inspiration racial puts you at 8. It's very easy to draw a few cards. I really don't think excessive restrictions are the way to go. Also, with that kind of limit, it would seem to be very silly to stack a pure draw deck, knowing it won't work. If you don't go pure draw, then your ability to get that many cards per turn is severely limited. I don't know if that kind of limit would stop the problem, but I'd rather risk a slap on the wrist than jump straight to castration.
