The Pizza gal seems very inappropriate

you say you give the developers feedback but i don't see anywhere where you talk about just how they could change things so "your " not disappointed. how would the story unfold if Gary asked Karen to play the game the first time she appears and how would you make her look and act? and again how would you not know that making her a tomboy wouldn't offend any others out there?


what saddens me is how some ppl ruin video games because they don't know how to put into prospective whats reality and whats fake. "to many games are to bloody, to many games are too sexist....." blah blah blah . my parents raised me to understand whats right and whats wrong and whats real and whats fake, whats there for entertainment and whats there to take to heart.

 

Nothing has seriously bothered me about the story so far.
I did find it mildly annoying that the story reinforces negative stereotypes of introverted basement-dwelling guy and extroverted has-a-life female. Follows the common trope http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiveGeeksAChance

Reinforcement of negative geek stereotypes is so common that it's hard for me to get worked up over it. If you don't roll with these punches you'll go crazy.

 

That's well put and well referenced. I hope it's what the OP was getting at. It'd be a lot more bothersome if Karen were more an idealized trophy figure or if Gary was less innocent.

The module art really strongly references 80s D&D art, so I kind of put Gary's reluctance to tell a stranger of his gaming habits in that context. Geek culture has gone hugely mainstream since then. Gary might assume that Karen might be put off by his playing Card Hunter not because she's a woman but because it's the more common reaction generally.

It's oddly mixed because I get the impression more people played D&D in the 80s, but few people admitted to it in unfamiliar company, at least at my middle and high school.

 

@Tess: Good post, I think it definitely shines new light on the entire thread, and points out where the disconnect is perfectly.

This is what I think makes things seem a bit problematic to some of us:

Gary is a character we are made to identify with from the start. He has some obvious positive qualities, and of course we have the far less likeable Melvin serving as his foil. So we find it a tad bit uncomfortable when he engages in behavior that makes us feel embarrassed for him. We're torn between liking Gary and feeling that he's a bad cliche. On one hand he says excellent things about wanting a play session to be an emotional adventure, and on the other he regards Karen as some sort of rarity... Between those two extremes he makes some statements which have little relevance, but gently satirize the stereotypical "basement-dwelling" dork of yesteryear. I personally am not sure how I'm supposed to feel about Gary, given that range.

This kind of thing would probably work in longer fictional formats, where we could delve further into the good and bad of every character, become properly accustomed to their dichotomous natures, and so forth. But the focus in Card Hunter is on gameplay, and the story advances in bite-sized chunks between that gameplay. The result is that when Gary says something slightly offputting, we spend 30 minutes playing, and in the back of our mind is the fact that a character who seemed pretty relateable just a few adventures ago said something that made us feel just... a little... icky.

Maybe I'm just not ready for turn-based satire.

 

Yep.

If we are repulsed by "girly" things, we have to do some soul-searching, and ask why that is. Are we even really feminists, if we don't allow girls to act girly? That's kind of like saying you're all for gays, as long as they don't act like they're gay. The primary purpose of modern feminism is not to make all women look and behave like men.

Yeah, I wouldn't be caught dead in a frilly pink dress, myself. But, if my niece wants to run around in a pink dress, by all means, she should do so. I just want her to remember to bring her toy sword with her, because there are monsters out there, and she might need to rescue the boy next door.

 

Oh! This is a very interesting observation, to me, because I never identified with Gary.

My initial reaction to Gary's introduction to the game was to tell the team that he reminded me of the type of guy I knew back in high school who would get an awkward crush on me, and then I would have to figure out how to let him down gently, without pulverizing his fragile self-esteem. I don't know if that's what instigated Karen's creation, but she certainly reflected a type of familiar experience, for me. That made it especially funny when you told me to put myself in her shoes, because it was almost like she had ended up landing in my shoes.

So, I guess it didn't occur to me that other people might identify with Gary. It may be that he has become a much more sympathetic figure than he was when I first saw him. As you correctly point out, the introduction of Melvin-as-foil does a lot to enhance this effect. But, for me, he is always the GM-across-the-table. He is the other.

There was always something between us -- me and Gary. The GM screen!

In any event, satire is sometimes more effective in cases where the person being lampooned is one the audience can identify with. But, perhaps, a perfect execution was impossible. I think you made some valid points about timing and format, like this:

Yes, you are probably right about this.

Hee!

 

Hey there

being a female Programmer and Gamer myself I want to agree with (it seems) every single word Tess posted in her last several posts of this thread.
I also wanted to add some thoughts myself but you may forgive me if I cannot put it in the right words (not an english native speaker).

I am not that far into the story for now (only level 7) but when I first encountered Garys reactions on Karen I actually had to smile a bit. For me he seemed so... "insecure" that I wanted to jump right into the screen, rufle this guys hair and hug him like I would hug a kitten making its first steps into the huge wide world. I most definetly had not the feeling of being insulted in any way.

As for the "pink" and "girly" discussion: I spent most of my teenage life desperately not to being referred as a "cheerleader type" of girl or to be pigeonholed in whatever cliche you would likely see the stereotypical girl. I would not wear any dresses, didnt used make-up, or touch anything pinkish. For a long time now I've seen how immature this was myself and that I did the same thing I despised on so many others: I pigeonholed those girls not even trying to get to know the person behind. Now I do like pink stuff (especially pink sport cars and pc gadgets), I like Hello Kitty and I even wear dresses (to the huge satisfaction of my Partner ). So I see no problem at all in a girl having a pink deck box or whatever it is Karen has in the game (I will see later on). I don't think your preferred choice of color has anthing to do with the person you are. I am still the Girl that most likely on social evenings plays board games with the guys then going in a disco with the girls - even when this means having a "bad" start with the othe females in our couple evenings. ^^ BTW: The brother of my goddaughter (both 6 years old) likes to borrow his sisters dresses and simply adores the color pink. Should I be worried? I don't think so. I think he will do just fine even when he likes pink.

Ok I am losing my thread here... so...
yeah seeya
*cuddles*
Sisquinanamook

 

It sounds like you haven't read what I've written very carefully. My objections are to her card box and dice bag and to the original set-up in the game of boys playing in the basement.

I've now played 4-5 adventured with Karen as DM and she seems fine otherwise.

 

Thanks for your contributions to this thread, Tess. I appreciate them.

I didn't think this was going to turn into one of the most replied threads on this forum, but here we are. Clearly it triggers something deep in many of us.

I think what you have written is probably at the core of some of the differences between folks on this thread. I don't think that the color pink or wearing a dress are inherently female. Not at all.

I have no problem with boys or girls doing whatever. I do have a problem with the idea that pink and sparkly stickers denote female-ness. And the same problem with emotional repression or physical bravery denoting male-ness. It's the boxing in of children and adults that is the problem. All of these are, of course, deeply ingrained in our culture currently, but we're gradually emerging from those dark ages.

So, when art (movies/TV/games/books/music) reenforces the whiny, pink princess-victim stereotype (I'm looking at you Taylor Swift) I think it holds that progress back. And the same is true with yet another TV dad who is a bumbling idiot at home and doesn't care for his kids (Ray Romano is a good example).

And these aren't just fashion or communication choices, they affect how much people get paid, what jobs they have access to, they affect violence and who is hurt, they affect everything.

As I said in a previous post, this game is so very far from the worst offender in this area. But I see so many wonderful aspects in the way it was designed that I wish that a pink, unicorn-festooned, sparkly card box was not how Karen was represented.

An earlier poster said "But how will we know it's her box?!? People will think she's a lesbian if it doesn't look like that!" Sometimes people don't even realize how much they view the world through male eyes. It's as if everything normal is male...and then there are special pink, female equivalents. Karen's card box could just be a box or it could have greasy pizza stains on it from her work or stickers from her favorite band or a CardHunter logo cause she's a big fan. There are so many other interesting creative choices.

 

My mom was a computer programmer in the 80s and 90s, mostly on mainframes. I grew up with her stack of punch cards on our kitchen table. She had alot of funny stories to tell from the work world. Though she also had alot of female colleagues. I sometimes wonder if there weren't more mainframe programmers who were women than we see now in the modern IT world.

I recruit for IT companies and I see resumes from women programmers so rarely. It's really quite sad. I'm a generally optimistic person, but the percentage of women in comp sci programs has actually gone down in the last 5 years.

Have you ever read the book "Schoolgirls" by Peggy Orenstein? She spent a year with girls in the 8th grade in 3 different middle schools and then wrote her book about them. She chose that age because girls actually outperform boys in math and science quite consistently until the 8th grade, then it flips and it never goes back (speaking statistically for large groups of folks). What she observed was really rather surprising and a bit heartbreaking. That book had a profound effect on my views of gender, more than any other single experience.

I care about gender for many reasons, but one of the biggest is that we have many challenges as human beings and I want us to be able to face it with the very best scientists, designers, programmers, presidents, etc. And many of those people would be women if we treated girls with the same respect and opportunity we now give to boys.

Not to mention the great DMs we could have.

 

It woudn't surprise me. But as far as I know (and being born 1984 I cannot tell from a personal experience) in the 80's Developer were more Ghosts who implemented Easter Eggs just to get some kind of credit for their work and not the "staring" VIPs they are today sometimes. So who can tell? But back to topic.

Thanks for the recommendation! I think I have a look into it. It sounds interesting. But back to topic... again.

I realy appreciate your concerns but sometimes - I have to admit - it bugs me alot that there are so many people out there fighting for "the female rights" and "equal rights of men and women" that I ask myself: Where is the "men" part in this? I mean... talking of a "statutorily regulated female quota" here - sometimes we just hire women only for the sake of not being called a sexist. And that is definetly not the right way. We should measure people according to their skillset not to their gender, race, haircolor, age or anything else. Otherwise how could I anytme be sure that I got what I deserve and not because I am a Woman?

Or very very bad ones.

And finally back to topic:
My first impression was that this game is playing with the cliches like a good satirical movie would play with the genres. Like a horror movie were the group is splitting up although everyone knows what a bad idea that is - simply because this is the cliche. It's even more funnier when the characters in the Movie know that it is a bad idea and they do it nonetheless... but this is another topic we could dedicate a whole Thread.

Ok losing again my thread and stumbling across my words... I am going to try this incredibly annoying adventure once again.

Seeya
*cuddles*
Sisquinanamook (or Sis in short ... writing the whole name starts to degenerate into work ^^)

 

I could write at length about how we need to improve the way we treat boys and men, but it seems I've bugged enough people with my posts already.

And I 100% agree that we need to evaluate people based on their abilities when hiring, not a quota. But by the age of 18 alot of the damage has already been done. People have not been playing on a level playing field up to that point. That is one of the primary things Peggy looks into in "Schoolgirls".

 

Hello.

Actually, it sounds like he read what you have written very carefully.

Your mentions of equity between gender in all environments, and in particular artistic media such as this game, are very valid and have been heard & agreed by most if not all in this thread.
However, so many of us have stated that Karen have an interesting & diverse personnality, and that her choice of accessories is simply part of that personnality. One shouldn't be regarded without the others, and that is why I think many of us feel like sexism just isn't there.

You stated that Karen' accessories aren't something that any of your female gaming friends would like, and that is fine.
But presuming that because of this fact it is inappropriate to represent Karen's accessories in the way they currently are is you making an assumption about all female gamers not liking "girly" things, and that it is not ok to show otherwise.
Some do, some don't.
If you meet a person like Karen at a gaming event, would you tell her that she emphasis the stereotypes people have about female gamers, or would you not care about those details and welcome her as she is: a great person with her own tastes & personnality?

As a comparison to your view, if Karen would have "non-girly" accessories, with pizza stain on it (as it was mentionned by someone before), I would think myself that it reinforces the stereotype of all gaming girls being geeky in some way, and that would not be ok for me.
Karen as she is is very unique and different from so many female gamers I met over the years and it is great, because it means you don't have to be like everybody else to do what you like... just be yourself!
(of course not saying that the female gamers I met are not great, on the contrary)

So all together, it sounds like you haven't read what we've written very carefully...


As a final point, I think we shouldn't deviate to a global scale discussion about gender equity in life, as we all agreed that it should be the case.


Take care all.
Ardiemum.

 

...Really? Another one of these "Me Me Me" posts. If you don't like it, don't play the game. No one is going to cater to you because you think you're special. You want fair treatment? Well, here it is: suck it up like everyone else does who isn't expecting a game developer to cater to them. Or don't play the game, you have that freedom.

 

It's a video game, not a presidential election.

 

I have a pink dice bag. I therefore hate this game.

 

It really looks to me like the main points in the thread have been discussed quite adequately, and that both of the major sides have acknowledged the stance of the other. So I would ask all to tread carefully, as continued discussion is most likely going to devolve into flaming.

My final take on things is: There are only 3 characters, and there is VERY minimal material to flesh any of them out. So any kind of judgements on a grander scale about "what the game is saying" are just inappropriate. We could complain there are no veterans represented, no disabled (or even moderately unhealthy) people, nobody has an abnormal body type (overweight, under height, eleven fingers...), no tattoos or piercings, no....

There are three barely developed characters, and the style is not appropriate for extensive development. So picking up on socially available stereotypes and slightly modifying them is absolutely the appropriate way to go.

 

I'm happy to see this conversation here. I feel like this is coming up more and more in the gaming industry, and I think that's a positive sign for the health of the industry.

I found all of the characters to be stereotypes and the big "reveal" to be predictable. I think it would have been pretty cliche either way Karen developed. I think the vague nature of her age makes their relationship a little strange and the whole thing awkward.

But that's mostly on reflection. My initial impulse was that the story was cute and sweet. As I've played more though, I don't find it nuanced enough to justify its presence, and I'm skipping the dialogue mostly to just get the gameplay.

I think all characters involved could use some roundness that takes them away from stereotypes, but it hasn't turned me off from the game. It's turned me off from the story, but not from the game.

 

Maybe it would take a non-trivial bit of work, but it's been suggested before that the story could be made interactive. Why not make the whole thing a little bit cooler by letting Player meddle in everyone else's affairs? The story could change (slightly) based on who Player chooses to encourage via dialogue options. For example, when Gary says silly stuff about pumping iron to Karen, the player could have options that look something like this:

"Don't be afraid to tell her the truth"
"(Play along with Gary)"

Putting the burden of choice onto the player is an awesome way to let people become a bit more immersed in the story, while at the same time addressing most of these concerns. Maybe different turns of events could yield different, story specific rewards, or extra pizza points or something. Fun for everyone!