The Pizza gal seems very inappropriate

it is because you said you wouldn't recommend the game to your female gaming friends that ppl take as your sexist remark, now had you just said your gaming friends that would mean all of them . cause what it sounds like is you may recommend it to your male friends but not your female friends.

 

It seems to me that this might have to be an agree to disagree sort of issue. Some people are saying this is gender neutral. You're saying it's not. I think to a large degree we bring our own experiences into this story. Short of the devs saying "The player is male/female" I'm not sure how they are supposed to make it explicit that it could be anyone. I feel like the player is treated at best as an equal during the Karen/Gary story and at worst just an observer. Either way I haven't seen anything in the dialogue that explicitly calls out the gender/race/sexual orientation/any other characteristic of the player.

I have to go back to what I said about equality of writing to address this. Yes, this is awfully stereotyped. However, Gary and Melvin are also huge stereotypes. In fact, I think out of the three Karen is the least of a stereotype - at one point I actually felt the devs went a bit too far breaking Karen out of stereotype. So why do you feel that the developers have to give better treatment to their writing of female characters than their writing of male characters?

 

I think the point is that your post could come across as paternalistic. You have decided that the game paints a certain picture, and decided that you won't recommend the game to certain individuals, particularly female individuals, because of this. You are assuming that you are right and people who disagree are wrong, and you assume that other persons, particularly women, won't arrive a different conclusion, so there is no reason to offer them the occasion (even if they would like the game, generally speaking). I would encourage you to recommend them the game, but tell them a caveat about how you feel, but let them decide how they feel about the characters. If they decline because of your caveat, so be it. The sexism in the game, if it is there, is surely not the visceral objectification which many games demonstrate. I think many people, including plenty of feminist-minded women, would sympathize with Karen's dealings with Gary, would like her dice bag, and would appreciate how she has been depicted.

 

I have one more comment on this - in a few of your posts you've switched sexist with racist and said that if the game were racist no one would be defending it. Let's turn the tables on that a little bit. Do you also assume that the player is white? Does this make the game racist because it isn't approachable by people of other races? Would people of other races be in an odd situation playing the game because they couldn't relate as well? Or do you think that the player could be of any race? If that's the case, what is the difference between race and gender here? Why does the player have to be male, but really could be european/african/asian/etc.?

 

Ah, OK, I think I see where we're disconnecting, here! Let me provide an anecdote, that may help get us on the same page:

I watched a small indie mockumentary, called "Computer Chess" a few weeks ago. In the film, he MC for the computer chess tournament keeps making much ado about the fact that there's a "lady" on one of University teams, for the first time. "And I just want you to know, you're WELCOME here," he would gush, every time he brought it up. He thought he was being nice, but UGH, I wanted to throttle that guy! OMG! As a female computer programmer, I have been singled out like that, so many times. It's incredibly frustrating.

When the film was over, there was a Q&A with the creators of the film. I raised my hand, and when they called on me, I praised the film creators on capturing the experience of being a woman at a computer science event so brilliantly. I said, "That was, YES, pretty much exactly what it's like! Thank you!"

I valued seeing that kind of experience on the big screen, because it was hilariously authentic. I wanted people to know what that experience was like -- to see how incredibly annoying that is -- to mock that man along with me. That is how satire works. The intention of good satire is to improve us. If it makes us a little uncomfortable, that's because it should.

It is OK and right to feel a negative reaction to Gary's behavior, just as I felt a negative reaction to the MC in "Computer Chess." Gary and Melvin are both meant to be flawed characters, who are being lampooned. It is quite clear that he is going about everything the wrong way, and we -- as an audience -- are embarrassed for him.

 

Hello,

As stated before by Banezilla, when you specified the type of people you wouldn't recommand the game to by your female friends, that's what makes the comment sexist (again, not you personnaly, just this comment).

Also, not too sure that "pizza gal" is the most appropriate designation for Karen, especially when you talk about sexism...

I totally agree with you, discrimination is not to be tolerated.

However, the specific discrimination you are refering to (sexism) isn't present here.
The personnality of Karen is covering a wide range, and the fact she uses a pink card box stamped with sparkling stickers is just one part of it.
The fact some female card players like the same kind of accessories isn't even relevant: she has her own personnality, she isn't supose to match any specific group or individual.
And even if a female poster was telling that she shouldn't use a pink box, I would still say: "On which ground? This is not your choice to make, nor is it mine".


That's it for now.
Have fun.

 

Thanks for coming back to the thread, Django!

I'm not partial to pink, but I sometimes deliberately like to get objects that are stereotypically perceived as "male" things in pink, for two reasons:

A.) Men and boys are less likely to steal them from me.

...and...

B.) It makes people question their assumptions about those objects. It's delightfully subversive.

When I was a teenager, I had a hot-pink skateboard, with a dragon on it. I had pink needle-nose pliers, for doing electronics projects. My absolute favorite pink belonging today is my pink Leatherman multi-tool.

I've known a number of other geek women who like to do the same thing, so maybe that's Karen's motivation. Or maybe she just likes pink, and that's OK. We don't all have to be tomboys.

 

Seems to me that Karen is perfectly comfortable projecting some traditionally feminine traits, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I can't see her drawing flack for looking like a 'fake geek girl' at CardStock either, especially if she goes as the Headless Horseman

Bear in mind that Melvin also likes pink things and unicorns - or at least YA vampire romances - but he keeps them hidden under the bed!

 

One problem with using an example from real life is that the real world is a very sexist place. MtG is a very male dominated 'sport'. Women who participate in a MtG tournament may often not feel comfortable bringing along accessories which are stereotypically feminine, since that could expose them to an increased amount of attention (wanted or unwanted), objectification, or mockery (however small). This would (hopefully) be less of the case at a local card shop tournament, but my point is that real world and public situations aren't necessarily representative of how one acts in a smaller setting, with friends, or without the burden of societal expectations.

Gary thinks Card Hunter is just for boys, but he is wrong. In the fictional world of Card Hunter, CH may well be just as popular with women as men. Karen may not feel the need, as real people often do, to alter her preferences to fit in or 'pass' in a given social situation.

 

What TV are you watching that is completely devoid of sexism and all other ills?

I am not writing off the entire gaming industry as immune. I am saying that in a game with little to no character development, we can't demand characters which conform to the ideals of everyone everywhere.

We would have plenty of people complaining if Karen was completely devoid of all "typically female" actions/interests. This post may not exist then, but another would whine that Karen is portrayed as a tomboy or closet lesbian because the game makers are implying that a girly girl wouldn't ever roleplay.

How would you run the characters differently? Outline what you believe to be the story boards which generated this material, and how you would select characters which fill it, and how they would interact.

Should Pizza Delivery person not even be a character until they Deus Ex Machina into existence just to provide spare CardHunter pieces because Gary suddenly needs them? Should we accept that this group lets a complete stranger into their house and later goes on a road trip with them based solely on that person having a couple cardboard pieces at an opportune moment?

A character needed to exist which would be welcomed into the group when the need presented itself, and then help foster the growth and maturity of the characters. This person needed introduced, and needed to be GRADUALLY embraced, but then embraced full force.

Britannicus brings up a very good point: Karen is NOT the only woman in the game. All of the figures and card art pieces which include women (I don't think any card art does... but don't really pay close attention) also factor in. And Chainmail Bikini simply is not there. Sure,. failing to have the worst thing ever doesn't alone write you off as harmless, but it SHOULD color our perceptions of the already admitted very minimal story elements. Both sides of this "debate" have stated that it is reader assumptions which color the actions one way or the other, and seeing a failure to be "casually sexist" in the art design should lend support to the non-sexist assumption being valid. Heck, Karen is in a T-shirt, not a cheerleader outfit, that was a decision as well.

 

I would hesitate to recommend it to any of my gaming friends, because my male gaming friends are uncomfortable with odd gender stuff too. But I think my female gaming friends might notice it more and be less willing to put up with it.

 

I think the situation is set up as a boy's clubhouse pretty clearly. People have mentioned other ways to interpret the situation ("what if we're the one female that Gary is comfortable with?") and those could be true, but I think this is a boy's inner sanctum is much more implied.

The stereotypically awkward Gary is a problem as well. That's what sets up the situation.

I don't have a problem with showing a high school age boy or girl who is uncomfortable with someone they're attracted to, but the way that is handled is important. This feels like it reenforces the unfortunate nerdy male gamer image and the exclusion of females. I recognize that Karen joins the group later on, but I played the game for 20 hours before that happened. And when it did happen she brings her pink, sparkly card box.

 

If being concerned about racist, sexist or homophobic aspects of a created work are paternalistic, then how can anyone speak up about those things ever?

I feel like many of these posts (not just yours) are not addressing the situation directly. They're trying to insult me as if I'm a "white knight", "paternalistic" or have a problem with my "moral compass" and that will somehow make the problem go away.

And I think you must know a very different set of women than I do if you think they would generally like her dice bag or the way she has to deal with Gary.

 

Loops - I think those are good points. Gary doesn't make any specific comments about race or the race of the people in the story, so that hadn't occurred to me. I don't think there is an "othering" that occurs in the same way it does with gender. For example, there isn't a black male trying to join the gaming group that Gary is uncomfortable and awkward around and keeps out as long as he can.

However, I just went and looked at the Cuthbert's Costumes and all of the characters appear to have fairly light skin color (when you can see it). Perhaps that is something the designers could address when they add more costumes later on.

 

Pretty much any stereotyping can be defended with "But it's a specific character and there are people who are just like that."

The problem isn't the one depiction, it's when almost every black character likes to dance and is good at basketball or every gay man speaks in a high voice and flutters his hands or every female character looks like a super model and wears pink.

It's the over and over and over again part that is the problem.

So, in a smart game like this, which does so many things well I'm disappointed in a few of the creative choices. That seems like reasonable feedback to give the game developers. And that's all I was intending to do when I made my original post.

Creators make choices and we as an audience can respond to those choices and tell them which ones we like and dislike. They're influencing us and we can influence them. I don't know why that has sparked such a strong response from so many posters here.

 

Cool. That's great to hear!

 

Django, nowhere in this thread have you shown any respect for those of us who think that Karen is an interesting, positive, and authentic character.

 

You know, I am fine with you critiquing a game character because she likes pink and 'girly' stuff. Don't for a second think, however, that it is inappropriate and unsuitable for a feminist and equality minded female to like pink and 'girly' stuff. You should keep your criticism to the game, because real people can think for themselves and have authentic interests and tastes.