The Pizza gal seems very inappropriate

Why boys, though? What is it about his reactions that give you the impression that he is hanging out with boys, other than his brother? I'm genuinely curious about this.

 

Hmmm, where to start. I'm guessing that it's the interactions between Gary and Karen that you think would put women off the game? I don't see anything about Karen's character in itself that would provoke a negative reaction at any point.

Gary's reaction to Karen is because he's a teenager and pretending to do macho things, which he believe will impress her. I can't really put it any better than Tess did:

I viewed it solely as another humorous interaction between the cast. I would imagine that the majority of Card Hunter players will look at Gary and (a) understand why he's doing it and (b) think that he is silly for doing so. It's not that Gary wants to exclude Karen (probably the opposite, since he's trying far too hard to impress her), it's that he's insecure. I would have thought that both male and female players of Card Hunter will recognise this behaviour, shake their head with a nostalgic smile and recall the times that it happened to them, whether they were on the perpetrating or receiving end of such behaviour.

I also made this assumption, probably because I'm male. Or rather, I'd never really considered the gender of the player. If the player is female, would his reactions make sense? Possibly, since the player would be someone that Gary has known for a long enough time to be comfortable around. Would Gary's initial reaction to Karen be different if Karen were male? Probably not; in my opinion he'd still attempt and cover up the fact that he's in his Mom's basement playing board games by trying to act all macho. With that said I personally think that the narrative works better if the player is assumed to be male and approximately the same age as Gary, if only because a female player or older player might be more likely to tell Gary that he's being an idiot and we can't actually interact with him...

Even if we make the assumption that the player is male, does that diminish the enjoyment for a female player? I'm definitely not the best person to answer that question. Regardless, I certainly wouldn't have any hesitation in recommending this game to any of my female friends (or women in general) because of the story.

 

Spoiler: Karen is a confident, self assured game master who steps in to help Gary after a falling out with Melvin. She and Gary grow close as friends and attend a gaming convention together. They do not kiss. Melvin gets his comeuppance and learns to be a better person. Now you may enjoy the story without the tedium of violated expectations. I also dislike when stories use cultural tropes to set up expectancies and then violate them. I demand that all stories immediately gratify, and maintain precisely the same set of values throughout. I dislike "pacing" and "challenge." Below are some of my reviews of other fiction.

What a dreadful book! Alex and his "Droogs" commit antisocial behavior with no consequences whatsoever! I put it down after two chapters!

This Verbal Kint is so boring! Why didn't the story focus on one of the other characters! I couldn't get into it and turned it off after 20 minutes!

If only I had known that Dr. Crowe was dead from the get go! I could have contextualized his actions so much better! 1.5 stars.

 

I sure love when people start talking around arguments instead of responding to then. Always makes for a much more interesting read.

 

I'm not sure how most of the posters here are talking around?

 

I think it would help this debate if we clarified something that is never explicitly said in the game. Gary is a young teenager.

 

I can see your point here. Gary is nominally playing with the player character in the story, even if the character doesn't really have what might be called 'first-class' representation as a character in the game. So given Gary's fear of interaction with girls, we probably should deduce that the player character is male, or at least someone very unthreatening to Gary, such as his sister (but then he wouldn't have to introduce Melvin).

That said, I don't think the player is really interacting with Gary in the same way as Melvin and Karen - those three are the story characters and the player isn't truly a character at all IMO. For example, the player cannot influence any of the storyline events. But insofar as the player is a character, I guess he is male. I guess you should only recommend it to women whom you think are capable of coping with that...

 

Is Karen a stereotype? I'd have said Gary and Melvin are much more so. Mom is a bit too.

 

Hi Tess,

I can see the potential link of assuming Gary's gaming friend is male vs female based solely on some of his comments. Example: "We're down here pumping iron...I just did x number of burpees.". Which is not the direct quote but close enough for the purposes of this discussion. That being said I do know some women that are big into cross fit and would be happy to pump iron and do burpees. The line itself though would be more usually associated with two teen males rather then one teen male and one teen female. Overall though I don't believe the game is sexist and I think either gender could be Gary's gaming buddy. A male does fit the stereotype somewhat better.

 

But the pumping iron was a lie...

 

That true, but its lie usually referring to the interaction of two teen males rather then one teen male and one teen female. As I said I could see the link the OP is making even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

 

Oh its certainly "seeable" but the OP ran away before any legitimate discussion could occur, which is incredibly frustrating.

 

Whole heartedly agree

 

This thread is probably going nowhere, but I think the game has a very charming story (just got to the part after Melvin takes Gary's cards away). I think Gary is charming timid, unsure, and un-confident , though he also is prone to fits and starts of self-aggrandizement. Karen is really great. She is curious but not intrusive but, fortunately for everyone, she grows more bold.

I think the OP needs to learn to differentiate between stereotypes which are established in the mind of characters (and are not validated) v. expectations and stereotypes which are being verified by the narration and the text. Gary does have stereotypes, but he is eminently wrong and that is the whole point. Context trumps immediate impression. We could wonder about the mother just as well as about Karen. I fully suspect her image will or could alter as the story progresses.

Sadly, I think the OP came into the threat already convinced he was correct, not allowing even a female developer's take to assuage his intuitions. I would hope his partner gets the opportunity to judge for herself as to how the story makes her feel, and that the OP doesn't decide for her.

 

Hey now everyone. Some people need to turn the notch down a click and let's all stay friendly, disagreements and all.

 

I wonder if the devs were intentionally trying to have this be a psychology study, because it's rather fascinating. From what I've seen, which admittedly is a bit lean at this point, gender of the PC is intentionally left unstated so that the player can self insert as the person at the table. Gender is not implied, if you believe that the player is a single gender you are projecting your experiences onto the game.

Which is fine as long as you understand that is INTENDED, and that someone else will see the PC as a different gender, race, or what have you. For my part, the PC was male solely because I am. The entire setup is made to make you feel as though you're sitting across the table. I didn't even think about any implications, it was just 'me'. And, oddly, I sort of assumed everyone else would think along the same lines. Funny, that.

As for the thought that the conversation doesn't work if the player isn't male... why? An example: "What's that? Ask her name? Are you mad?" Two quick (and not at all all encompassing) ways to interpret that would be a male friend sort of egging him on, or a female friend wondering why he's just doesn't do the obvious. Those can easily be switched around, by the by. As for the previously mentioned line "We're down here pumping iron...I just did x number of burpees", he's posturing. He'd have said the same thing if he was with a man, woman, Dwayne Johnson, Calista Flockhart, or a Shetland pony. "That's right, the pony can bench 250. Really buff. We're working on quads after a quick oat break."

If you want to complain that Karen is overly flat, you should probably consider that it's somewhat difficult to have the scope of someone's personality known when it's in context of a person who is too flustered to actually interact with them. If you've always been so confident with yourself that you've never actually got all tense and flustered around someone you find attractive, to the point that you cannot actually empathize with Gary's position in any way, then congratulations on being the most calm and rational person this side of a Vulcan.

If you want to complain that the characters are too stereotypical, I'd classify them as more archetypal than stereotypical. Oftentimes characters start very archetypal in order to provide the audience with a familiar base platform, and then their personalities are built on top of that. You define the base roles of the character from the start, and then you build their personality on top of that. That's a fairly common way to provide character growth. Which, based on the plot synopsis above, is what you're getting here. Classic 3 act play. *rehashed spoilers!* First act, characters introduced, exposition provided, roles established. Early conflicts highlighted, will Gary ever get over his insecurities and talk to Karen, and where will the burgeoning conflict with Melvin go. Tensions rise in the second act, leading to a crisis via a break with Melvin. Gary is forced expand himself and better himself, with the support of Karen whom he learns to accept. Climax comes when Melvin, as stated, get's his comeuppance and learns to be a better person. Pretty much textbook.

I think I got a bit off topic there, but the TL;DR version: Any view anyone has of the protagonist comes from their personal biases, Karen is perfectly fine, and assuming that your personal interpretation of a story or event is the only possible one while being upset at it and then leaving when people attempt to open a dialog from an opposing viewpoint is rather immature.

 

At least we see Karen's face. We only see Mom's feet. Now THAT's objectification

 

Well, to be clear, what I say should not be interpreted as some kind of blessing from all womankind. Taking my word at gospel would be hasty generalization. I'm a weirdo! I'm not sure anyone should consider me as representative of anything but myself.

I think Kathayla may have been on to something, though. The player seat seems to be almost something of a Rorschach Test ink blot, and everyone brings their own baggage into interpreting what that role is. We all may feel differently about it. As a woman, I actually found myself rolling my eyes at Gary for asking me who brought the diet soda. Why are you asking me, Gary? I don't even drink soda!

 

Here's some things Gary says in Rescue from Shieldhaven Prison:
"Can you, a knight in shining armor, rescue this fair damsel in distress?"
"Do you think that if you freed the the Baron's daughter, she'd like to hang out sometime?"
then he panics and says "Hold on. I'm the GM. Why am I asking you? Let's get back to killing monsters. So much simpler."

I read this as Gary freaking out even just pretending to hang out with a fictional woman. Therefore I have believe he considers me and my chars to be male (correct for me, but wrong for all my chars).

 

The line that immediately precedes this dialog is "Who is this mysterious maiden trapped in a pizza delivery job? I mean Shieldhaven prison?" so it is clearly Karen that's on his mind, here.

(Not that I'm a fan of the damsel-in-distress MacGuffin, in general, but that's a separate issue. As others have pointed out, the trope gets subverted as our story goes on.)