Time to break Altruism - post builds and discussion here.

This is my sad excuse for an Alturism deck that can certainly be optimized. I encourage others to post suggestions and their builds as well as their experience with them just to have a record of how problematic this card may be.

While I'm not at infinite draw I'm certainly on the large draw side of the fence and if it gets going it can devastate the other team. Certainly when my opponent has played all of their cards I can just go to town.

Certainly high on the list of not fun decks to play -- and play against -- as well.

Saint
Level 17 Human Priest

Aureate Mace
White Halberd
Inspirational Mail
Icicle Shield
Mouse Boots
Orla's Tear
Smoky Talisman
Orla's Tear
Advanced Flexibility
Novice Piety
​

2 x Devastating Blow
2 x Flanking Move
2 x Altruism
1 x Draining Touch
2 x Polearm Slash
1 x Slowed
1 x Weak Chop
1 x Demonic Feedback
2 x Bash
1 x Cautious Sneak
2 x Leadership
11 x Inspiration
1 x Icy Block
1 x Mail
1 x Wounded Block
4 x Minor Heal
1 x Flimsy Block
​

Savior
Level 20 Human Priest

Aureate Mace
White Halberd
Mail Of The Martyr
White Shield
Boots Of The Foolish
Smoky Talisman
Cloudy Charm
Cloudy Charm
Advanced Flexibility
Novice Piety
​

1 x Wild Run
2 x Leadership
2 x Altruism
1 x Draining Touch
2 x Polearm Slash
2 x Misguided Heal
2 x Martyr Blessing
1 x Demonic Feedback
1 x Weak Block
2 x Bash
1 x Slowed
1 x Weak Chop
1 x Horned Plates
9 x Inspiration
2 x Devastating Blow
2 x Missile Block
2 x Minor Heal
1 x Quick Step
1 x Dangerous Maneuver
​

Turador
Level 18 Elf Priest

Aureate Mace
Aureate Mace
Inspirational Mail
Streaked Shield
Possessed Shoes
Amulet Of Inspiration
Amulet Of Inspiration
Amulet Of Inspiration
Untrained Evasion
Untrained Piety
​

4 x Devastating Blow
1 x Fright
2 x Altruism
1 x Immovable
1 x Defensiveness
1 x Cautious Sneak
1 x Slippery
4 x Bash
1 x Hit The Deck
15 x Inspiration
1 x Shuffle
1 x Lifesaving Block
1 x Mail
1 x Superstitious
1 x Walk
​

 

I think it might be worth sticking Inspiring Presence in there if possible. Especially on weapons, although I think it takes Legendaries or Epics to get Inspiring Presence on weapons, but they usually come with a couple other holy cards. They would go a long way towards breaking a triple priest Altruism combo. (Each inspiring presence would draw 3.5 cards by itself).

 

Challenge accepted.

 

And here is the build. The goal is to draw 13 cards on moe, so she has all her dead noncycle cards in hand. Then just cycle dwarven cry or inspiring presence until you have enough cards on the other two.

Helga
Level 20 Dwarf Priest

Malign Mace
White Halberd
Inspirational Mail
Acrobat's Aegis
Garalem's Boots
Amulet Of Inspiration
Skull Of Savage Iljin
Amulet Of Inspiration
Advanced Ferocity
Focused Piety
​

2 x Flanking Move
1 x War Cry
1 x Absorbing Block
10 x Inspiration
1 x Mail
1 x Powerful Bludgeon
1 x Acrobatic Flip
1 x Demonic Feedback
1 x Simple Strike
2 x Savage Curse
1 x Inspiring Presence
1 x Blind Rage
1 x Weak Chop
3 x Altruism
1 x Righteous Frenzy
1 x Traveling Curse
1 x Draining Touch
1 x Wild Run
1 x Strong Bludgeon
2 x Polearm Slash
1 x Bludgeon
1 x Dwarven Battle Cry
​

Hilga
Level 19 Dwarf Priest

White Halberd
Malign Mace
Inspirational Mail
Acrobat's Aegis
Boots Of The Cheetah
Amulet Of Inspiration
Smoky Talisman
Smoky Talisman
Advanced Ferocity
Focused Piety
​

2 x Minor Heal
1 x War Cry
1 x Absorbing Block
9 x Inspiration
1 x Mail
2 x Polearm Slash
1 x Acrobatic Flip
3 x Demonic Feedback
1 x Weak Chop
1 x Rushing Aura
1 x Blind Rage
1 x Simple Strike
3 x Altruism
1 x Spin Around
1 x Righteous Frenzy
1 x Traveling Curse
1 x Draining Touch
1 x Sprint
1 x Strong Bludgeon
1 x Powerful Bludgeon
1 x Bludgeon
1 x Dwarven Battle Cry
​

Moe
Level 20 Dwarf Priest

Aureate Mace
Heavy Mace
Inspirational Mail
Streaked Shield
Spinning Top Boots
Jygpin's Healing Ring
Smoky Talisman
Smoky Talisman
Advanced Ferocity
Focused Piety
​

2 x Devastating Blow
1 x War Cry
1 x Blind Rage
7 x Inspiration
1 x Mail
1 x Lifesaving Block
2 x Minor Heal
1 x Charge
3 x Altruism
2 x Demonic Feedback
1 x Light Heal
1 x Team Heal
2 x Bash
1 x Fright
2 x Spin Around
1 x Righteous Frenzy
1 x Hit The Deck
1 x Inspiring Presence
3 x Strong Bludgeon
1 x Bludgeon
1 x Dwarven Battle Cry
​

 

So much for the talented healer nerf being the last big change, I guess. I'd be psyched to see turinturamba's suggested change to altruism: no roll, but it only triggers when you target an opponent.

 

I went infinite draw with this 3 human priest build and also won the game with it in multiplayer (against a rank 1500). It only goes infinite sometimes though, so it's probably not as reliable as turinturamba's. I don't actually own any cards with inspiring presence; but if I did I'm sure this would be far more reliable. It uses a lot of demonic feedback and has exactly three nimbus in the decks so by the time the decks cycle, all three priests are invincible and no longer take feedback damage. Then the opponent has little chance of stopping you when you go for the kill with sprint/flight aura. I also have only two advanced flexibility, two focused piety, and four demonic charm of the 2nd circle so there are some non-optimal cards there.

Coraline
Level 1 Human Priest

White Halberd​

Malign Mace​

Inspirational Mail​

Defensive Buckler​

Spinning Top Boots​

Amulet Of Inspiration​

Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle​

Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle​

Advanced Flexibility​

Focused Piety​

​

1 x Draining Touch​

1 x Charge​

2 x Demonic Revenge​

1 x Bludgeon​

2 x Leadership​

7 x Inspiration​

2 x Unholy Power​

1 x Defender's Block​

1 x Simple Strike​

1 x Slowed​

3 x Demonic Feedback​

1 x Powerful Bludgeon​

1 x Mail​

1 x Strong Bludgeon​

3 x Altruism​

1 x Righteous Frenzy​

1 x Weak Chop​

1 x Loner​

1 x Block​

2 x Polearm Slash​

2 x Spin Around​

​

Lorjerr
Level 18 Human Priest

Aureate Mace​

Vampire's Blade​

Inspirational Mail​

Streaked Shield​

Winged Moccasins​

Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle​

Amulet Of Inspiration​

Shielding Token​

Novice Flexibility​

Focused Piety​

​

2 x Bash​

1 x Jarring Block​

2 x Consuming Touch​

2 x Impenetrable Nimbus​

1 x Hit The Deck​

1 x Draining Touch​

3 x Altruism​

1 x Unholy Power​

7 x Inspiration​

1 x Fright​

2 x Devastating Blow​

1 x Spin Around​

1 x Slowed​

2 x Loner​

1 x Leadership​

1 x Mail​

1 x Sprint​

1 x Lifesaving Block​

1 x Flight Aura​

1 x Demonic Feedback​

1 x Demonic Revenge​

2 x Invigorating Touch​

​

Meledien
Level 1 Human Priest

Demon's Golden Blade​

Mendicant's Spear​

Inspirational Mail​

Defensive Buckler​

Winged Moccasins​

Demon Charm Of The 2nd Circle​

Smoky Talisman​

Smoky Talisman​

Advanced Flexibility​

Untrained Piety​

​

1 x Sprint​

1 x Unholy Wellspring​

1 x Impenetrable Nimbus​

3 x Obliterating Chop​

2 x Minor Heal​

1 x Defender's Block​

1 x Unholy Power​

4 x Inspiration​

1 x Boosted Heal​

2 x Demonic Revenge​

1 x Defensiveness​

1 x Slowed​

4 x Demonic Feedback​

2 x Leadership​

2 x Puncturing Stab​

2 x Potent Stab​

2 x Altruism​

1 x Flight Aura​

1 x Loner​

1 x Block​

1 x Mail​

1 x Spin Around​

​

 

Another important thing to keep in mind when considering if this combo is OP; If we can already create these kinds of combos and chains with the amount of tokens we already have, what happens when the game scales to higher levels? I've gotten characters to level 20 in the campaign and those characters have 2 more blue tokens than the ones in multiplayer.

 

Is it really Altruism that's broken? Would the problem persist if you couldn't get high numbers of Inspiration cards into your deck? Is it simply (I say simply...) the interaction between Altruism and Inspiration that is the problem, rather than either of the individual cards?

 

Problem is that altruism makes inspiration a 1 for 1.5 trade, effectively gaining you cards instead of just replacing them. If you had a full inspiration deck without altruism then you would only be replacing the card and not gaining massive card advantage.

 

Yeah I like inspiration as a card because you can either cycle yourself or "give" a card to an ally. Imo, it's a perfectly balanced draw card that is still fun to use and creates interesting tactical opportunities. (Compared to unholy power which gives straight no-drawback card advantage but is at least more difficult to get on gear). As long as inspiration isn't paired with any additional card draw (like altruism) it really isn't a problem and doesn't need a change.

You... you can get level 20 characters in the campaign? That's mind blowing!

 

If card drawing spells are not holy, does that solve (or at least go a long way towards solving) the problem?

 

You're right that Altruism alone isn't enough to cause the problem - it can only cause a problem when it is combined with other cards with draw effects such as Inspiration. In a different thread, Jon said this about it:

In my view, the balance effects of Altruism can be controlled through careful item design and careful choice of which cards should be classified as 'holy'. But if Altruism is not changed, then I think it will be an ongoing chore and the balance will always be fragile. Every time a card or an item is added to the game, and every time a card or item is changed, the designers will have to consider again how the new cards will interact with Altruism, or else they risk another infinite draw problem.

If the designers are happy to deal with that, then that's fine. But if it was up to me, I'd be inclined to remove the card drawing effect from Altruism so that designers can relax a bit and have a bit more freedom to add/change things without having to worry about upsetting such a delicate balance. (In this post, I tried to describe why card drawing effects create a unique problem for balance and thus need to be treated with caution.)

 

The problem of infinite draws would (probably) not persist, but the real lesson of an infinite draw build is to show that a card is overpowered. Even if Altruism draws you only ~3-4 extra cards during its duration (because inspiration is not available and you have to use heals for your holy spells) then it still is a vastly better trait than any other unless you make all holy spells underpowered.

 

Characters still earn EXP when playing modules lower level then themselves. The highest level modules are 17, which means 17th level characters will get 10 exp and eventually be 18; 18th level characters will get 4 exp each and eventually be 19; 19th level characters will get 1 exp each and eventually reach 20. Of course, when attempting to play a 17th level module, the game will force your level 20 characters to scale back to 19, so you never actually get to play with that extra blue power token, but it's still on the character sheet when looking at them at the Keep or in Shops, plus you still have the extra blue token rewarded at 19th level to use.

 

To some degree yes. Altruism is a known suspect card and has been used in the infinite draw decks, Inspiration, or the interaction of the two, may very be the issue but part of trying to break Altruism is to see what cards it does interact with in unwanted ways.

It may be that just limiting the number of Inspirations you can have in your deck will make Altruism just fine. On the other hand, dose the potential to use other holy cards as cycle cards bring it anywhere near to being a problem?

 

My two cents.

I don't think inspiration is the issue, only in combination with altruism does it get problematic. Honestly , it's not all that powerful of an effect, until you pair it with altruism. Even if your removed it, I think inspiring presence would be the next issue (though I think it takes multiples of certain legendaries to make that noticeable). Eventually they'll add another holy spell that draws cards, or more powerful items with mass inspiring presence, and that will probably be an issue too.

To me the issue with Altruism is that it shouldn't trigger with card drawing effects, ever. Altruism triggering with card draw is something we continue to break. My suggestion would be to make ALL card drawing spells unholy, or create a new third designation for priest spells if you must. This change would continue on future cards as well, no holy spells get to draw you cards. Limiting altruism to triggering off heals, purge, nimbus and other effects. That leaves altruism as a powerful effect, but it should limit the ability to chain it into massive card drawing.

 

Have you thought about the idea to let it trigger only when you target enemies? (And remove the die roll) Should be fun and not breakable.

 

"Whenever you play a Holy card on an ally, that ally may Slide 1"?