[Feedback] Whirlwind ruins most games

WW & WWE is a pretty good counter against priest infinite draw decks.

 

Perhaps, but then if a tactical game is always decided by random events... why bother playing it as a tactical game? If it's not a tactical game I've lost interest since that's primarily why I'm here in the first place -- my love of tactical games. There isn't a whole lot to be learned from WWE (to play against it) really other than play a slow, boring game and draw yours first. You do learn how to best take advantage of casting your own though, which, in turn, makes more games have outcomes based on luck and some very light counterplay as opposed to tactics or deep counterplay.

 

...or almost any other tactic, thus the problem.

 

Well getting struck by a WWE (which happens to position you unfortunately) is certainly frustrating, but so is getting a killing blow that your opponent just happened to draw against which you fail your 2+ Parry roll. There is randomness in this game. I agree that too much of it is a bad thing. I can even agree that WWE crosses the line, but I'm not convinced yet.

It teaches you (besides that: not to ragequit due to a spectacular but not so devastating effect) to use more mobility cards (and to like Immovable). Skills and helmets and whatnot that give you "move team" cards are better because this effect exists, so you have to think twice about the other cards you favor in these slots.

And then the devs wonder why people don't play that much with Elves. While the players rather play with dwarves, then complain about WWE (and Encumber).

Situationally, if you already stand on the Victory square, and a WWE hits you, you can still have your Move back if you didn't waste it. If you don't yet stand on Victory squares, WWE may actually get you closer to them.
The times I really got frustrated by WWE were when I happened to draw enough Move cards to get to the Victory square on turn 1, and then it hit me. It hurt, but actually it was only countering my own lucky draw.

 

I'd be happy to play you with my 7 WWE, 3 WW deck.

And if you're playing a non-movement based deck? And if you're not you don't already know movement is king?

Heh, I play dwarves BECAUSE of WWE.Don't want my elves one-shott killed after a WWE...

Yup you use moves to get back, then get hit by another WWE... Then I walk up and stand on the victory square and WWE any time you get close and are a threat. It's not quite that cut and dry, but it's pretty close.

 

Dude you make no sense. WWE is a bronze card. Do you understand how OP that is? You draw 3 move cards and get countered by a bronze card. Think of the implications of that for a few minutes.

 

well if you're arguing that it should be more rare, I can easily agree with that. somehow the topic seemed to be about removing the effect from the game entirely.

 

This is a gold card: Improved Telekinesis

This is a bronze card: Whirlwind Enemies

How come a bronze card has infinite range and the ability to move charecters 20 squares across the map while a gold card has a range of 4 and can only slide 2?

 

that actually has a quite obvious answer: because it is not random.
(and much more versatile, since you can move allies with it if you like)

 

And even if you nerf WW and WWE so that they are emerald cards, it still doesn't change the fact that it's anti-fun pure cheese strat that is a 100% no-skill noob tactic.

By the way - I use WWE all the time I have 2 copies in my decks. Why? Card's mad OP.

 

So what? The randomness doesn't detract from the power of this card.

 

well I'm not afraid of 2 in your deck - but if I have to imagine a deck that has 4x
Rod Of Winds
(after all it's just a lvl9 rare)
well that does make me think twice about this argument.

btw it is interesting that WWE is C, while WW is R.
one would think WWE is the stronger card.
there is something weird going on here all right.
I wonder if it would be enough of a fix if they exchanged these two on all items.

also: of course randomness detracts from its power.

 

Because Improved Telekinesis doesn't have a chance to drop their two warriors next to your wizard...

 

Wow the labels you are throwing around... If both WW and WWE were emerald cards, no it doesn't change what the cards do, but it does change the way they can, and will be used. You won't be able to stack 9+ on a single character allowing you to construct a strategy around those specific cards. So, it will become the one-off panic button type of cad it was likely intended to be.

Or, by your definition, you're a no-skill noob that uses anti-fun pure cheese strategies?

The cards are not OP at all... they can simply be abused and they go against the strengths of the game.

 

A few people have stated that they think they should. I held off judgement of a fix until I tested it more, and got to hear the impressions/arguments of other people. I've come to the conclusion that I personally think that WWE should be removed and WW should be more rare and on fewer items.

My reasoning for this is because, while it is a problem, I don't want to remove the effect from the game and I think Whirlwind is a perfectly valid panic button or tactical mixup. My problem with it is multiple uses turning a game from a tactical match to being determined by random factors. Whirlwind Enemies I don't feel is different enough from Whirlwind to warrant an additional effect that has the same drawback as Whirlwind. If you can't plan on WWEs like you can now, then it is really just another WW.

Now, this is only the conclusion I have come to. Certainly not to say that the discussion about the validity of the cards themselves should stop. I'm interested to see the conclusions others come to about them. Since I've been testing my WW decks I've seen a lot more people using it and the forum threads have been popping up so I'm glad the conversation is happening.

 

I'm completely with you its the number of whirllwind effects you can get that makes it not work not what the spell it self does. I remember when the only place you could get it on was robes it was a nice surprise and a decent card. But i also agree that forcing a deck to be nothing but moves to counter something like 40% whirllwinds in a deck is just not working.

 

I agree with the general theme that WWE is either too effective, or too common.
Both of these cards introduce a large amount of luck into a match, which is unfortunate. There's nothing worse than having excellent, well-planned out positioning then having thrown against a wall adjacent to two warriors. I find these cards well out of the general theme of the game, and find them not fun to compete against or use.
I would really recommend adjusting the movement from these cards to be more in-line with something like Maze.

 

I also agree that WWE is too effective. It has a decent chance of placing one or two of your enemies a long distance from the fight, effectively focusing them to be inactive (unless they happen to have multiple moves or Sprint) for two or so turns while your other characters either fight outnumbered or hide and give them free victory tile points.
I like the idea of changing whirlwinds to something AoE based rather than global. Maybe something like slide 1 or maze in a burst 2 around target, or perhaps in a burst 3 around self.

 

I'd propose the following cards.
Whirlwind, Whirlwind Enemies, Whirlwind Team: mass maze effects.
Wild teleport: range 6(?), place target on a random unoccupied square (as in the current version of whirlwind).

 

[I actually just posted exactly this in another thread - but I was intending to post it here.]

One thing I like about WW and WWE is that they can result in positions which would otherwise never arise - and so players are forced to think about how to deal these usual situations. I think that can add some interest and variety to the game. Most of that effect would be lost if WW/WWE were changed to be a short-range maze effect.

On the other hand though, I must say it can be pretty frustrating to have several turns of carefully maneuvering into position ruined by someone using WWE. And I certainly think Whirlwind Enemies is more powerful than other bronze cards.