[Feedback] Whirlwind ruins most games

I think this card (both all and enemy) ruins this game. It's a game of position and you have to think about it, doing your calculations etc, then a simple card messes up everything. This is worst than an icy card, that can be avoid in various manners. It's simply lame.

 

It's a high risk solution for creating distance between two or more characters. It's a perfectly reasonable option, if the caster is willing to accept the possible consequences, such as; Not actually putting any distance between the characters you wanted to, moving yourself away from victory points, moving your opponent towards victory points, putting yourself in harmful or terrain, ruining line of sight for your remaining spells. Whirlwind Enemies only marginally better, because it still has a lot of potential drawbacks but at the very least you know you won't be flinging yourself onto lava tiles.

 

I also have an issue with them due to the totally anti-tactical nature of them.

I've found that if you plan for Whirlwind Enemies you can never get a horrible result. When you hold the victory conditions and are running any encumber spells this becomes a very game changing card. It seems as though that, when planning for it, there are only two situations that can result. The first is a neutral result that doesn't really mean too much to the game -- such as when the enemy position doesn't change by any reasonable margin. The second is that you gain an advantage either by bringing one of their characters in range of all three of yours, or moving their characters away from/off of the victory conditions usually assuring your team of one or more victory points.

Similar to the firestorm argument, WWE is a global spell that when your strategy is focused around it, you only need to draw the cards you need with very minor attention paid to positioning. So long as your party is grouped together, has additional movement and is ready to attack, WWE can, at worst, do nothing for you or at best allow you to take out one or more of their characters.

Normal Whirlwind is a bit of a different story because you can't plan for it quite as well. My problem with it is that it reduces the game to random chance instead of strategy -- which, yes, I'm aware that this can BE a strategy, but not something that supports skilled play.

Here is my current party that has been serving me well (a little too well in my opinion). I'm certain others can find a better setup to punish people with this tactic. I have lost with it only due to my opponent casting WWE before I drew mine; not drawing WWE at all; and/or not drawing attacks for 2 rounds when already in the center of the board...

Oh, and I often beat Mom without even playing an attack.

Gor
Level 11 Dwarf Warrior

Excellent Rapier
Bejeweled Shortsword
Bejeweled Shortsword
Dependable Mail
Azure Shield
Commander's Cap
Possessed Shoes
Untrained Toughness
Sharp Bashing
​

2 x Shifty Stab
6 x Powerful Hack
1 x Immovable
1 x Icy Block
4 x Vicious Thrust
1 x Bruiser
1 x Penetrating Cut
2 x Reliable Hide Armor
1 x Reliable Mail
1 x Shrug It Off
1 x Flimsy Block
1 x Dash, Team!
1 x Lunging Bash
2 x Nimble Strike
1 x Parry
1 x Impaler
2 x Powerful Bludgeon
2 x Lunging Hack
1 x Cautious Sneak
1 x Shuffle
1 x Scuttle, Team!
2 x Mail
​

Ar'snick
Level 1 Dwarf Wizard

Staff Of Winter
Cottonwood Staff
Rod Of Winds
Greenstone Pendant
Wand Of Hot Winds
Rod Of Winds
Bloodfoot Robes
Taz Boots
Novice Ferocity
Novice Teleportation
​

1 x Violent Spin
2 x Barge
1 x Chilling Rime
6 x Whirlwind Enemies
1 x Big Zap
2 x Dimensional Traveller
1 x Flimsy Block
2 x Spark
1 x Winds Of War
1 x Force Bolt
2 x Charge
1 x Boiling Armor
1 x Team Shift
1 x Weak Chop
2 x Stone Spikes
4 x Frost Jolt
1 x Arcane Aura
2 x Whirlwind
1 x Cold Snap
2 x Path Of Knives
1 x Hot Spot
​

Gam
Level 18 Dwarf Warrior

Bejeweled Shortsword
Blazing Shortsword
Sharp Spetum
True Mail
Impetuous Shield
Steel Cap
Marmot Boots
Advanced Ferocity
Untrained Impaling
​

2 x Impaler
2 x Lifesaving Block
3 x Powerful Hack
1 x Dwarven Battle Cry
5 x Vicious Thrust
3 x Fiery Stab
1 x Dash
2 x Reliable Mail
1 x Clumsy Chop
1 x Blind Rage
1 x Parry
1 x Combustible
1 x Weak Strike
1 x Shuffle
1 x Walk, Team!
3 x Devastating Blow
2 x War Cry
1 x Powerful Bludgeon
1 x Wild Run
1 x Stab
1 x Thick Hide Armor
1 x Mail
​

 

I totally understand complaints that WW is too random and annoying. But I have trouble seeing it as OP. You totally disrupt the tactical situation, and give your opponent first move to take advantage of any opportunities that have opened up. Far too often, it's a recipe for disaster.

I'd be curious how many people with ratings over 1400 or so have it in their decks, and how often they use it. I have to say I don't run into it all that often in highly ranked games.

 

As far as just Whirlwind it's very hit or miss. That's really part of the problem. There's not solid tactic with it. At best it's a panic button. It's not that it's OP (like some might consider WWE) but that it ruins games. I've often had the caster use it, then immediately quit because it was bad, or immediately win by being able to drop two characters in the next round. Either way, it doesn't make for a good game.

 

In MP Whirlwind and Whirlwind Enemies are pretty high up on the list of anti-fun cards. Just like Volcano it encourages strategies of delay, avoidance and baiting out your opponents' move cards so you can get an advantage from being more prepared for the nasty surprise than they are. Whether or not these cards are OP they should not be as available as they are because it's a borderline cheese strategy and the only counter is to play as passively and protectively of your move cards as your opponent is (to be constantly prepared for cheese).

The card quality and token cost for disruptive global spells like these three needs to be higher. WWE is so cheap to get in your decks - cheaper in many cases than the blocks it burns - that including blocks, team moves and immovables specifically against it will put your opponent at a token advantage. And he'll still get to move one or two of your characters.

 

I think that would be a good change for them, allowing them, but not allowing the ability to have so many of them.

I've found some Tempest Robes to put on my Wizard which brings my whirlwind count to 3 (I could do without those though!) and my WWE count to 7.

 

What if it were to be changed to an extended maze effect then? For instance move each character 5 random directions, or even better have a 5x5 grid that they can be randomly put on (obviously other distances would work too)

 

i honestly think whirlwind is fine there are cards to counter it and it as people have said highly random and more of a last resort kind of deal. If you still feel its too hard to beat either run more dwarfs that can't be moved or more elfs that don't care as much as they will catch up quickly anyway.

 

I like this idea a lot. It would be much less random feeling that placing anywhere on the board but still feel flavorful enough to be "whirlwind"-like. Although whirlwind in its current state doesn't bother me that much, it just makes movement cards more valuable. Besides, baiting out opponent move cards before whirlwind or lava terrain has always made for interesting mind games.

 

This doesn't change the fact that in order to play against it well you need to play a slow cautious game. Unless you have all of your immobile's on, you have to hold at least one movement card. Even if you do it may not be enough to get you out of trouble.

Again WW isn't as much of a problem as WWE is in this respect, but certainly still an issue.

 

I used to like WWE, but then I got annoyed by how random it is, so I replaced them with Winds of Wars and Telekinesis-es and I got so much more satisfied with the result.

 

Funny how I missed this thread. I made my own "I hate whirlwind cards" thread here: http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/whirlwind-isnt-fun-and-adds-too-much-luck-to-the-game.3067/

It's not that whirlwind is OP, it's that it's lame and not fun.

 

Oh yes, absolutely! That is why I loved Whirlwind Enemies at lower ranks. Not because I thought the effect was so powerful (although it was good), but because it won me a lot of matches due to ragequit. I was so grateful for such cards, they could win me a game even from a very bad position due to frustrated ragequit, "regular" players just saw it and gave up immediately, regardless of actual winning chances. Ha Ha Ha!
Too bad this does not work against more experienced players at higher ranks any more!

 

Yes, but after enough time you wouldn't have any opponents to play against. Think of how bad a card like WWE is for the game's longevity.

 

I think if a player is a type of player who gets frustrated when something bad happens to his team, he would always find something to complain about. This is not how good players are born. Good players are born in the fires of Lava Traps and the winds of WWE and the cold hell of Encumberance. Man up, deal with it, learn from it! Oh I'd love to be a drill sergeant.

Anyway I am not really defending WWE, perhaps getting rid of it would indeed be good for the game, i honestly don't know. I really like the card art tho, so I'd be sad to see it go.

 

There is such a large difference between WWE, a card with infinite range and 100% luck, versus every other card in the game that it's difficult to take this sentence seriously:

Sorry man, there is nothing good about a card with 100% luck. There is no skill involved. That is not "good" by any definition.

By the way - since we're on the topic of good players - what is your elo? My rank floats around the top 50 player mark. You make it sound like I'm whining when in fact I'm probably a much better player than you. Not trying to insult you, just trying to keep it real.

 

nah don't take it personally, I just really try to sound like Melvin, he's my hero.

What I'm trying to say is, that such a random card usually gets less used (in the world of CCGs) the more experienced a player is, because they prefer reliability.
What I don't get is, if you think it is such a good card, and don't want to come across as whiny, why don't you use it yourself and tell us stories about how well it worked for you instead of against you.

 

Any card with a dice roll on it uses luck. By your definition none of those cards are "good".

Well, it comes across as an insult / e-peen measuring contest. Your MP rank is better than mine, but that just means you've won more MP matches, not that you're a "better" player than me.