Whirlwind isn't fun and adds too much luck to the game

^^^^ Title says it all. Currently top teams are running this card in stacks of 3-5, and it's just stupid. Wait for them to move onto point, whirl them off. Or just use it and hope you get super lucky when they land on a random lava square.

This is a card game, and there's already enough luck in the game. Whirlwind just makes games come down to the luck of the whirl, which is silly.

Please remove all instances of whirlwind and whirlwind enemies, it adds nothing to the game and it isn't fun when someone gets super lucky with this cheap card.

 

I liked the suggestion in another thread to make WW and WWE move everyone within a limited range. Maybe a 5-step random walk, ignoring terrain effects?

 

It should be even smaller, like a 1-step or 2-step random walk. Like a mass maze.

 

First, I have to apologize Forlorn. I've been running/testing this for a bit now and you've been on the receiving end quite a few times.

WW is good as a panic button and if you do a 2 to even 5 step 'maze' effect it would't be good enough as a mage protector at all. It would end up being a 'let me shift you off of the victory square...again' spell.

As far as WWE... it might be okay to do a 5 step maze. It certainly wouldn't be as abusive as it is currently, but I think it would turn into what I said above being a 'you move off of the victory conditions, now I get the point' spell. Still causing major annoyance and slow, cautious and protective play.

I'm glad people are now being vocal about WW/WWE now though, I've been testing and talking about it for a little bit and just haven't compiled enough data to make a strong post about it yet. Thus far I'm in the 1300 ranking range relying most heavily on WWE. I don't even have to attack Mom when I run into her. I just stand on the victory conditions and WWE.

 

I see this card(s) as no more than a one turn stall card. I guess it would really piss off a dwarf player

 

So I encumber you and then send you to the other side of the map while I stand on the victory squares. That's only 1 turn of stall? Then when you come back, I'll cast it again...and again... Oh, and if you happen to land next to my two warriors (who will always be bunched together) I'd think you'll find it's more than a stall tactic. As posted in the other thread here is the team that I have been testing this out with:

Gor
Level 11 Dwarf Warrior

Excellent Rapier​

Bejeweled Shortsword​

Bejeweled Shortsword​

Dependable Mail​

Azure Shield​

Commander's Cap​

Possessed Shoes​

Untrained Toughness​

Sharp Bashing​

​

1 x Immovable​

1 x Cautious Sneak​

2 x Shifty Stab​

2 x Mail​

1 x Parry​

1 x Dash, Team!​

1 x Scuttle, Team!​

1 x Shuffle​

1 x Bruiser​

1 x Reliable Mail​

4 x Vicious Thrust​

1 x Icy Block​

1 x Flimsy Block​

1 x Nimble Strike​

1 x Shrug It Off​

1 x Penetrating Cut​

2 x Reliable Hide Armor​

1 x Fiery Stab​

2 x Lunging Hack​

2 x Powerful Bludgeon​

1 x Impaler​

1 x Lunging Bash​

6 x Powerful Hack​

​

Ar'snick
Level 1 Dwarf Wizard

Staff Of Winter​

Cottonwood Staff​

Rod Of Winds​

Greenstone Pendant​

Wand Of Hot Winds​

Rod Of Winds​

Tempest Robes​

Taz Boots​

Novice Ferocity​

Novice Teleportation​

​

2 x Stone Spikes​

7 x Whirlwind Enemies​

4 x Frost Jolt​

1 x Winds Of War​

2 x Spark​

1 x Boiling Armor​

1 x Resistant Hide​

1 x Chilling Rime​

2 x Barge​

1 x Force Bolt​

1 x Team Shift​

2 x Dimensional Traveller​

1 x Hot Spot​

1 x Weak Chop​

1 x Violent Spin​

1 x Big Zap​

1 x Cold Snap​

1 x Flimsy Block​

2 x Charge​

3 x Whirlwind​

​

Gam
Level 18 Dwarf Warrior

Bejeweled Shortsword​

Blazing Shortsword​

Sharp Spetum​

True Mail​

Impetuous Shield​

Steel Cap​

Marmot Boots​

Advanced Ferocity​

Untrained Impaling​

​

1 x Combustible​

1 x Walk, Team!​

1 x Wild Run​

1 x Shuffle​

2 x Reliable Mail​

1 x Parry​

3 x Powerful Hack​

1 x Thick Hide Armor​

1 x Dwarven Battle Cry​

1 x Mail​

1 x Stab​

1 x Blind Rage​

5 x Vicious Thrust​

1 x Clumsy Chop​

1 x Dash​

2 x War Cry​

2 x Lifesaving Block​

1 x Weak Strike​

3 x Fiery Stab​

1 x Powerful Bludgeon​

2 x Impaler​

3 x Devastating Blow​

​

Most of my losses have come from my opponent casting WWE...​

 

I see your point. If it is being abused like that, then it seems it is due for a nerf like leadership

 

Learn to run faster moves or be less bothered by encumber if you are consistently losing to this. I played a similar deck and it got shreded as soon as people played sprint and arogant armor.

 

Right, so build a deck specifically to combat this because that's the only way to... That signifies a problem.

That's why you hold two in hand. When you have almost 1/4 of the deck being Whirlwind Enemies it's not too hard to do. The only person who has ever been able to just completely outmaneuver my deck is Progammer who uses two high mobility warriors and has a TON of good cards with all of the good team move and high step attacks.

 

Well there is also the very obvious trait that just makes it not work so i guess that is also a option. I never suggested you build a deck specifically to counter it i said if you fight this a lot use sprints and or arrogant armor.

 

Suddenly out of nowhere lol. It was Progammer, not Programmer. My warrior deck use a combination of team move, team push and sprint to give that amount of mobility, which is basically required for warrior.

If I had to give an opinion on this, limiting the range like a maze do make more sense. The power of whirlwind really varies upon map. In a map with a lot of rough terrain, coming back from a whirlwind is much harder (since Free Move usually have a very low move number). Map with few rough terrain (even if its not open) is more forgiving.

Nevertheless, the abundance of whirlwind in any wizard deck is a problem. Counter card can never match the amount of whirlwind they can throw.

 

It seems to me that team move cards, like Team Run should be the natural counter to whirlwind. Right now, whirlwind enemies seems a far better option which is odd considering it's much lower quality.

Personally I think a mass maze is the best option. It still doesn't require LOS or have a range, so it should still be at least one quality level above Maze. If it were a mass 5 step maze, a gold quality card like Team Run couldn't "undo" a Whirlwind Enemies, that doesn't seem right to me.

 

But mass Maze 5 may not even need to be countered by a team move since all of the characters may only move 1 making it a pretty useless card.

 

If every character only moved 1 space, each would still need to move 1 to get back to where they were (assuming that's where they wanted to be), which in most cases would require multiple cards. Yes it's random, very very random in fact, but it's a bronze card that doesn't require line of sight to use. I don't really see why it should be offering a super useful and dependable effect.

 

But let's assume that generally characters want to get somewhere. Whirlwind with a Maze 5 would create a situation where there is only a 46% chance that they will be at a disadvantage, ignoring terrain. The other 54% of the time they are not hindered or they benefit. Of course terrain and timing matters along with whether or not you're on a victory square, but with keeping in mind that it has a generally higher chance to help your enemy (or not hurt them) why do you feel that it should be countered by a single team run?

 

The counter method should always be cheaper, more cost effective or slightly better than the strategy it is designed to counter. If the counter is not adequate (for example, requires more card to counter 1 card, or counter card can only have 1 copy vs combo card have 8 etc...), the strategy got stagnant and revolve around the combo that is hard to counter. (So called chese or whatever the terms)

 

Just the ability to push your opponents off of VP is enough to me. A single card that can gain you a VP or deny your opponent a VP seems more than adequate for a bronze quality card, especially when you can cast it without line of sight (meaning you can always cast it). Winds of War requires LOS, can only move 2 characters, and is two quality levels higher. Telekinesis pales in comparison.

The mass move spells represent card advantage to a wizard. Your opponent normally has to spend multiple cards (moves, team pushes, etc..) to undo the effect of just one of your cards. In the case of Whirlwind enemies, it can often be closer to 3 or more cards. That's a lot of upside for a lowly bronze quality spell.

 

I just got my second Rod Of Winds, but I have no intention of touching that foul, corrupting hex of an item any time soon.

 

So what , then, would you say if I positioned it as Whirlwind Enemies being a counter, and really the only counter, to team moves? Which, in my opinion, is primarily what it is.

 

Well, I think Whirlwind Enemies is the counter to the priest strategies where they all stand around in a corner and do something broken. Essentially it allows you to split up an opposing team without even needing to get LOS on them. Personally, I hope we drive those decks out of the meta during beta testing.

But in regards to normal team move counters? Winds of War and Advanced Telekinesis both give Wizards 2 for 1s in being able to move back 2 targets for 1 card.