[FEEDBACK] Ally's No Longer Targeted in Step Attacks

Sticks and Stones love.

Thick Hide Armor

Penetrating Lunge


Thick Hide Armor is split Blue/Grey
Penetrating Lunge is split Blue/Red

Your next two points I've already covered in saying that have "OR" clauses, while You're proving my point in saying they were an AND clause, but are now AND/OR.

But I will admit they are visually different, having the double boxes. That may be just because it wouldn't make sense to put Armor abilities in the same location as keywords for movement (such as cantrip, free move...etc)

Thick Hide - Movement (Foot) OR Armor
Penetrating Lunge- Step 1 AND Attack 4

Consider this example:
If you're halted, you cannot satisfy the movement portion of penetrating stab and as a result cannot activate the card. Makes sense to me, it's all in 1 box right?

Would it not make sense that if you cannot satisfy the attack portion of the card you should not be able to activate the movement portion either?

Of course it makes sense, but that doesn't mean it has to be the case, as we've seen with the implemented change.

It's now:
Penetrating Lunge - Step 1 MAYBE Attack 4.

Which in the current game play, is a false choice; One would never attack their allies given the opportunity to avoid it (unless an otherwise alternate utility - Winds of War, Draining Attack...etc).

 

I appreciate, but reject, your romantic advances. I am already spoken for.

I couldn't see the color difference in the blue / grey split on the wiki, but I can here. I was wrong on that count.

I don't follow. I'm saying they were AND / OR, and are still AND / OR. They're just consistently AND / OR now, as opposed to inconsistently AND / OR.

Could be because they function differently. Just sayin'.

As for how the game functions, I have no idea. I don't think I've ever had halt used on me.

I would have no problem with allowing a halted character to play a step attack card and not let them have the step. I think that would be more consistent with the game as-is. I also think it makes sense, so I disagree with you on that count. The card is valuable because it's dual purpose. Halt takes away half the purpose. I see no problems there.

 

2c:
I agree with some people in that since the cards ARE attack cards, they need to have an attack linked with them, in a way like Cautious Sneak.

However, they are multicolored blue/red. If you can use them as either an attack or move card, it makes sense.

 

I'll have to cancel my singing telegram and roses delivery. Alas.

Before:
You move - You must attack something (even if it's "The Darkness"). In many cases, nothing to attack so the ability cancelled.

Now:
You move - You may attack something.

Experience (and my 3 Priest build) has shown me that when halted (via Entangling Roots or otherwise) a target may not activate a Step-Attack, similar to if you were halted and tried to click a movement card.

Halted Now and Before:
You cannot move - You cannot attack because you cannot move.

Knowing that Halt takes away the full card. Would you have that changed too? By doing this we'll devalue Halt as a keyword, and again increased the value of step cards, but it will again separate the Hybrid cards:

You cannot use Movement Blocks and Movement Armor when halted, what's the argument to make an exception for Movement Attacks?

 

Right - though I would add that, realistically, you never had to move to get the attack. I know that move cards can be used to turn you in place without moving, but given that you're attacking after you move in place, which will turn you, you're effectively not moving. Also, I view attacking the darkness as not attacking. So, in my opinion, it was possible to move and not attack or attack and not move.

To me, the most important thing is consistency. The old system didn't have it. The new system does. Taking the cautious sneak route (you must move within attack range or not at all, and you must attack, period) is better than the old inconsistent system. I'd still take it over the old, but I wouldn't take over the new, because I feel like the cautious sneak approach is still inconsistent (move in place (i.e. don't move) and attack is still an option), and it's also rather punishing, casual-unfriendly, thematically silly, and doesn't really make the game any better.

In my opinion, quality depth doesn't come from complicated mechanics so much as it comes from a lot of simple mechanics coming together in complex situations. I think the game generally does that well. I don't think you need to over-complicate a limited subsection of the game (step attacks) to make the game have more depth. Furthermore, I think cards that have negative impacts should be very, very clear about having negative impacts. Bungled Heal is a really good example of this, as is that damn healing card that hurts you for two and heals you for four (?) that I cannot remember the name of for the life of me.

My first reaction, when I played a step attack card and was forced to attack an ally, was, "what?!", followed by, "bull****!", followed by, "that's a bug." Those are the kinds of things you don't want in your game. Even if the devs decided to take the cautious sneak approach, the card should make it damn clear that you'll have to attack an ally if circumstances demand it.

I'm fine with devaluing Halt as a keyword, as it were, since Halt still has its intended effect - it prevents movement. Not attacks. Halt preventing a step attack means Halt has now crept into the realm of preventing attacks, which makes it OP, in my estimation, more than the other approach makes step attacks OP.

Unless the game has gone mad, you can use Movement Blocks and Movement Armor when Halted - you just can't use the movement component of those cards. You can still use them to block and armorize. So too with step attacks. Yes, they're different beasts (as per our earlier argument), but I think it still makes sense.

 

That's a good argument.

I'd argue it's not OP, because Halt hardly seems OP in this current implementation, which it DOES prevent step attacks. It's so not OP you haven't even come across the example of it happening yet!

My only rebuttal would be that Step Attacks are too powerful, and without any checks to keep them in line (such as Halt/Encumber), they become strictly better than all other attacks, and have no additional counter-play that separates them from normal attacks given their movement component. Which is what this entire thread has ultimately been about.

Which may be ok should the designers deem it so.

 

Agree on both counts. In my opinion, they should be balanced by way of rarity and lack of other positive aspects. E.g., respectively, don't slather them all over every weapon, and make me still want regular attacks because regular attacks have penetration and hard to block, and step attacks don't.

 

When playing the campaign recently, I was distraught to discover that a "discard all move cards" played on my warrior forced him to discard his step-attacks as well. I was going to use that to win the game!

After catching up on this thread, I find that I am okay with step-moves being classified as primarily movement cards. Before, they could be considered as primarily attack cards, since you were required to attack something if possible. If in exchange for not being stupid and stabbing our allies, we must discard step attacks as movement cards and cannot play them while halted, so be it.

I would say that with a few exceptions, most step attack cards found on gear do little damage and don't move very far, often less than the default movement of even dwarves. In my experience is is difficult to load up on lots of step attacks that actually do a lot of damage, but that may just be me not having the right items.

I would say the overall significantly lesser damage of step attacks is supposed to be the balance against their usefulness.

 

That is definitely the case. Vicious Thrust (especially) and Nimble Strike are the primary problems, but even a 2 or 3 damage card gives a walloping when you add frenzy and other buffs. You're right about how they're supposed to balance, but i don't think it's working.

And on topic - i like the change. Having to hit your own guys was just annoying and counter-intuitive.

 

Stun will also prevent you from playing step-attacks to move, which I learned in Melvelous when I relied on them to get off terrain attachments.

 

This. It's an interesting mechanic. It's not a good mechanic. There are plenty of attack all, or AoE type abilities that you can use if you want to hit your buddies. But for a single target attack it makes your characters look like morons.

And that's what Oops! is for.

 

Well, they do tend to have less damage than typical attacks. You will take a Lunging Hack when you would never consider a Weak Strike. There is no Dancing Obliterating Bludgeon.

Edit: this point has been made above. And it was also responded that buffs reduce the difference, which is true. But that's a balancing issue that happens in a lot of games; early on you have only the bare attacks, and later on you have to balance the buffs. There are ways it could be fixed.

 

I never claimed it was, i simply said i want them to make it happen if they plan to keep this change.

As far as i know you can't attack if you can't move so you actually had to be able to move and the reason it makes sense is because if i lunge towards you full on attack style logically you would have a face full of sword. Why would someone go rushing around with weapons out for no reason to get around?

Actually no more complications does not make a better game but too much simplification makes for a worse game and less depth. Say next patch we remove most depth characters now get one basic move one basic attack and one armor card a turn is this a good game since its now shallow as a duck pond?

I disagree completely but you have the same right to a opinion as me, that said i find it very impolite of you to be so constantly condescending and/or smug or if not as it is sometimes hard to tell coming off that way. Either way you should try to work on that and i wish you a good day in Cardhuntria.

 

Hate to bump a old thread but was this changed to being forced to attack your teammates again?

I have had to attack my teammate once or twice because of this and seen no way to not attack them so am I missing something?

It makes no game sense to be forced to attack your own teammates unless under some kind of confused / control spell and they generally are a bit weaker because of the step ability to offset the movement they provide.

 

If I'm not mistaken, you can do the step stage and then cancel the attack stage. That button is located in the same lower right area as the Pass button. (Caveat) I don't remember being in a situation in which I did a step attack movement and only an ally was within range. I do remember being in situations with both allies in range and was able to cancel. I also remember being in situations where there were no targets in range and was able to cancel.

*edit* I just checked a step move beside an ally. You can cancel the attack phase. Your single ally will have the outline as an available target but you can click the "Done" button in the lower right of the screen to cancel the attack phase.