Experimenting with P2W

Recently I've been conducting an experiment in an attempt to provide evidence to the claim that Cardhunter is pay to win. Using a test account I've spent $100.00 worth of pizza on chests. I will then use the items obtained exclusively from those chests to create a random party. I will record my findings here. To compensate for the fact that all chests provide random drops, I will repeat this experiment several times. I hope to further prove that Cardhunter is in fact not a pay to win game.

My First Batch
I used the 3800 pizza to purchase 25 Epic Chests. Below are a list of Legendaries obtained, as well as the build I managed to scrape together. Against the AI in ranked matches the party had a 70% success rate. Estimated party ranting in ranked matches 1100.

Edit: I am still gathering data on this build and will update and explain the build as time permits. (Unfortunately due to the fact that I do not own all of these items on my normal account, I will be using proxies with as similar items as I'm able for testing against human combatants.)

Legendaries
Barnum's Burning Bauble
Berian's Locket
Chartwell's Ring
Forval's Chain
Lenora's Prayer Beads
Nasrum's Moccasins
Reynoldo's Boots
Staff Of Fireballs
The Hackmaster
Unholy Nimbus

The Neapolitan Human Build
Warrior01
Level 2 Human Warrior

Dancer's Dagger​

Excellent Rapier​

Dagger​

Vibrant Plate​

Dueler's Buckler​

Defensive Helm​

Naradoc's Boots​

Perfect Tactics​

Novice Gouging​

​

1 x Block​

2 x Unreliable Block​

2 x Nimble Strike​

1 x Dancing Cut​

1 x Parry​

2 x Shifty Stab​

2 x Acrobatic Flip​

4 x Lunging Hack​

1 x Inspirational Thinking​

1 x Vicious Thrust​

2 x Dynamic Armor​

1 x Wimpy​

1 x Lateral Thinking​

2 x Hardy Mail​

2 x Penetrating Cut​

2 x Flanking Move​

1 x Lunging Strike​

3 x Lunging Thrust​

1 x Impaler​

2 x Penetrating Lunge​

1 x Immovable​

1 x Shimmering Aura​

​

Kolo
Level 2 Human Wizard

Crimson Staff​

Mindsplinter Staff​

Magma Scepter​

Rod Of Palver Pree​

Simin's Glowing Mirror​

Rod Of Winds​

Crimson Robe​

Magic Monkey Boots​

Unskilled Human​

Fireblinker Novice​

​

1 x Kindler​

1 x Short Perplexing Ray​

1 x Resistant Hide​

1 x Burning Fingers​

1 x Volcano​

1 x Whirlwind​

1 x Zap​

3 x Flash Of Pain​

1 x Telekinesis​

1 x Team Shift​

2 x Acid Jet​

2 x Penetrating Bolt​

1 x Powerful Spark​

1 x Scamper​

1 x Dodge​

2 x Obliterating Spark​

2 x Stone Spikes​

1 x Firestorm​

1 x Hot Spot​

2 x Sizzling Bolt​

1 x Cloth Armor​

2 x Whirlwind Enemies​

1 x Dimensional Traveller​

1 x Ember Spray​

1 x Dangerous Maneuver​

3 x Walk​

​

Holly
Level 1 Human Priest

Whiteglow Flail​

Enervating Spear​

Burnished Plates​

Cover Shield​

Red Jon's Boots​

Auric Charm​

Pol's Prayer Beads​

Acolyte's Healing Ring​

Command​

Superb Healer​

​

1 x Misguided Heal​

1 x Frenzy Aura​

1 x Barge​

2 x Predictable Stab​

1 x Mass Frenzy​

2 x Missile Block​

1 x Healing Blessing​

2 x Bad Medicine​

2 x Flanking Move​

1 x Cleansing Presence​

2 x Boosted Heal​

1 x Heal​

1 x Team Heal​

1 x Impenetrable Nimbus​

1 x Inspiring Presence​

2 x Nimble Strike​

1 x Walk, Team!​

1 x Slowed​

1 x Greater Heal​

1 x Cleansing Ray​

1 x Healing Presence​

1 x Healing Spirit​

1 x Flimsy Block​

1 x Sprint, Team!​

1 x Rusty Armor​

2 x Draining Touch​

1 x Talented Healer​

2 x Martyr Blessing​

​

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to improve the experiments results would be appreciated.

 

Batch Number Two
Like the previous batch for this one I used the 3800 pizza to purchase 25 Epic Chests. Below are a list of Legendaries obtained, as well as the build I managed to scrape together. Against the AI in ranked matches the party had a 90% success rate. Estimated party ranting in ranked matches 1200.

Edit: I am still gathering data on this build and will update and explain the build as time permits. (Unfortunately due to the fact that I do not own all of these items on my normal account, I will be using proxies with as similar items as I'm able for testing against human combatants.)

Legendaries
Bleneth's Frenzy Tome
Brin's Storm Locket
Elemer's Pine Staff
Hand Of Wicna
Mokk's Boots
Reaper's Scythe
Relic Of St. Darqar
Trained Evasion
Unholy Nimbus
Yancley's Boots
Yvette's Buckler

The Double Dwarven Warrior Build
Grimlee
Level 1 Dwarf Warrior

Colossal Hammer
Blocking Mace
Hatchet
Thick Banded Mail
Dueler's Buckler
Angry Jack's Helmet
Mokk's Boots
Perfect Toughness
Unskilled Martial
​

1 x Block
2 x Simple Strike
1 x Mighty Bludgeon
1 x Reliable Mail
2 x Weak Chop
1 x Inspiring Armor
2 x Obliterating Bludgeon
2 x Escaping Run
1 x Rusty Armor
2 x Bludgeon
1 x Strong Bash
1 x Able Bludgeon
1 x Walk, Team!
2 x Unreliable Block
1 x Chop
1 x Powerful Bludgeon
2 x Weak Strike
1 x Heavy Armor
1 x Trained Bludgeon
1 x Officer's Harness
1 x Barge
1 x Thickened Mail
1 x Weak Block
2 x Toughness
1 x Blind Rage
3 x Parry
​

Aldrhungit
Level 1 Dwarf Warrior

Reaper's Scythe
Blocking Mace
Gleaming Glaive
Cloth Shirt
Underdog's Shield
Commander's Cap
Tough Fencer's Boots
Raging Rock
Untrained Gouging
​

3 x Cloth Armor
1 x Dash, Team!
2 x Dodge
1 x Mighty Bludgeon
2 x Stab
2 x Polearm Slash
1 x Rusty Armor
1 x Predictable Stab
1 x Obliterating Bludgeon
2 x Obliterating Chop
1 x Walk
1 x Scuttle, Team!
1 x Strong Bash
1 x Impaler
1 x Shredding Strike
1 x Unreliable Block
1 x Reliable Hide Armor
1 x Powerful Bludgeon
2 x Wounded Block
1 x Weak Strike
1 x Desperate Block
1 x Penetrating Cut
3 x Blind Rage
1 x Lunging Hack
1 x Toughness
2 x Parry
​

Ronciram
Level 1 Elf Priest

Pearl-handled Glaive
Inkdark Halberd
Mail Of Succor
Big Ash Shield
Plain Old Boots
Bleneth's Frenzy Tome
Demon's Tooth
Relic Of St. Darqar
Trained Evasion
Superb Ablution
​

3 x Walk
2 x Demonic Feedback
2 x Bludgeon
1 x Unreliable Block
3 x Sapping Touch
2 x Polearm Slash
1 x Wounded Block
1 x Energizing Move
1 x Cause Fumble
2 x Holy Presence
1 x Righteous Frenzy
1 x Able Stab
1 x Savage Curse
2 x Consecrate Ground
1 x Martyr Blessing
2 x Spear Of Darkness
1 x Dynamic Armor
2 x Flanking Move
2 x Help The Weak
2 x Mass Frenzy
1 x Inspiring Presence
1 x Healing Rays
1 x Icy Block
​

 

Any update to this process?

I'm interested in its results.

 

Sorry, I haven't been on much this week. Yesterday was my birthday and so we've had a lot of visiting friends and family members. I'm still working on it and have 2 more completed batches that I will be adding shortly, as well as commenting on the builds already listed.

 

If there are about 10 legendaries in 25 epic chests that makes a 40% chance per epic chest to get a legendary, or a 20% chance per "guaranteed epic" for that epic to be legendary instead.

 

My computer has been having some difficulties and as a result I've lost many of the specifics of my results. Apparently, my computer thinks save means, delete. Although, here is what I've learned:

The following actions of opening chest were preformed several times to insure quality data.
From opening 61 Magnificent chest (roughly $50.00 worth of pizza) I obtained between 1-4 legendary items.
From opening 13 Epic chest (roughly $50.00 worth of pizza) I obtained between 4-7 legendary items.
From opening 25 Epic chest (roughly $100.00 worth of pizza) I obtained between 8-14 legendary items.
Percentage wise your spending an average of $10.00 to obtain a single Legendary item.
If you happen to find a Legendary in Randimar's Rarities it will cost you over $15.00 worth of pizza.
Additionally, the variety of items available prohibits a player from spending irl currency to obtain a specific item they are after via chests.

The parties I was able to build were seriously lacking stability and consistency. In both SP and MP this fact lead to one sided battles based solely on the luck of the draw. It is my belief that a larger selection of cards outweighs the merit of the "best" items in the game. I can simply suggest a player look at Mom as evidence that the best cards do not make the best player.

Furthermore, I believe that it is not viable for someone to P2W.
If you have any specific questions or comments please let me know.

 

Does "legendary items" include legendary treasures (which are basically a bag with 200 gold)? How many of those did you find? Or do they only exist in chests you get from playing?

The legendary items from Randimar's Rarities might be more expensive, but you'd only buy them if they'd fit into your build. A random legendary item might not be a fit at all, for example a Wym's Lavastaff might require building a complete deck around it to work, but can then be extremely powerful.

 

wym's lavastaff is super powerful. I play volcano + firestorm wizard.

 

Wow, I would totally play lavastaff. Get some resistant hide on your characters and BURN BURN BURN

 

Well.....its more or less a whirlwind + firestorm + volcano + path of knives. Basically slap path of knives on as many opponents as possible, and then position your units at the beginning. Then displace them once the player is ready, and has a good amount of debuffs. Follow that with fire storm + Volcano once you displaced. If whirlwind place them too close, make sure you have winds of war too. 1 priest is great, since martyr blessing, healing presence, and unholy wellspring are all great for this strat.

This is a super annoying strat, and extremely fun.

 

No, chests obtained via gold or pizza do not contain treasures.

 

Love the initiative i did something similar early on and came to the same conclusion. That said obviously supplementing a well tuned team with good items from chest will make it better but not on a scale that makes the game pay to win. I still dislike chests as a whole but i can see why they are there even besides making money and i don't feel they ruin the game as much as they just give me a uneasy feeling.

 

This thread proves the game is overwhelmingly pay2win. Not that I have a problem with it. But let's be real: How can a normal player compete with a dude who has bought 14 legendary items? It is to laugh. The guy who spends $$$ just has to play 20-30 hours of normal game time to supplement his deck with some non-orb cards and he'll have the better deck, every time.

 

I tend to agree. I avoid them; because I want to earn my items through combat. Although, that is just me and if someone wants to I feel they should not be chastised for utilizing chests.

I don't possibly see how this threat proves that. When you consider how many different legendaries there are and the odds that you will even get one from a chest it, seems laughable to say it is pay to win. A large aspect of this experiment was trying to utilize legendaires which most players view as the best items. However, there are common items which I personally favor over legendaries. Legendaries generally have better items or more of a single item than the other rarity types. However, this can lead to one trick ponies. For example even what is considered to Staff Of A Million Fireballs does nothing against a character with Resistant Hide for example. So, you see the game is extremely situational.

Additionally, being better off item wise by spending money does not equate to wining games.

 

I am inclined to think the game is Grind to Win more than it is Pay to Win.

 

Back in the day, I had pretty much multiple copies of every item in the game, but even then, you still need some skill to build your deck for the current challenge. Just looking at lists of Legendaries does not help you. Game is Play to Win, I think.

 

Sure it's grind 2 win - but if you pay you can cut down on your grind time by 50%-80%, depending on how much you pay.

 

Not sure how we can convince you that gear is not the deciding factor if you don't want to be convinced. Both me and lance had great success early on because we utilized smart management of talent points decent tactics and had some luck. Yes the person with the best gear will some times get a free win because of it. But I'm willing to bet someone with more experience would beat them handily with half that gear because its not about cramming the most legendary items on a team. Legendary items are rarely stronger and even when they are they are focused to a point where you have a opening to exploit or they lack something else. Does a armor with 0 armor cards sound good to you? Sure does to me but how do you not just die before you get to use all those cool attacks you have instead? A no talent axe with a insane attack on it for no talent sweet! But wait are those 4 shoves on it... eww and so on. TLDR options will always help you build a better party but shiny purples and orange junk does not win games.

 

Bolded for emphasis. You make his point for him.

This is a deck building game. "Winning" this game does not means winning a single discrete MP match since there is no possible way to guarantee this. Winning means maximizing your deck's chances in general or against specific setups and then acting on that. Access to certain good rares/legendaries (Staff Of A Million Fireballs, Vibrant Pain, etc), especially in multiples, pretty much guarantees your deck will have >50% winning ratio against decks without them.

Card Hunter isn't really pay to win. Card Hunter is top heavy. People with the best gears have exclusive access to the best decks, and the only mean to obtain said gears is to win against those same people, at a great disadvantage, and then get lucky. Veterans are rewarded for being veterans and newbies are punished for being newbies.

The situation is similar to a lot of early Korean MMORPGs. The only reason the system hasn't imploded yet for Card Hunter is that there is a constant influx of new players to prey upon due to the slow trickle of beta keys being given out. A multiplayer game with this reward structure isn't sustainable in the long run.

 

This might be true if it wasn't for ranked matchmaking. Provided the multiplayer community is large enough, newbies should very rarely (if ever) be playing against veterans.